NAMRU2 Issue

[sharon sanders]

Re: NAMRU2 Controversy

After some consideration and consultations with a few members I have decided that to fully understand the Indonesian point of view we need to broaden the discussion beyond Namru2. There are many issues here.

The discussion will continue here and include: Namru2, viral sample sharing, "big pharma", current "boots on the ground" status of H5N1 etc.

Thanks to everyone for a great discussion!

[Siam]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

I think in the end we all want the same thing, it's just how we get there that is the issue. Please don't stop talking, at least we can do that.

[Commonground]

Re: NAMRU2 Issue

26/04/2008 23:42 WIB -
Namru 2 closed if [persist/keep it up/implement it] Intelligence Unit

The member the Commission of I People's Representative Council RI Effendy Choirie stated the Naval Medical Research Unit existence (Namru) 2 from the United States in Indonesia must be closed when having the indication carried out the activity of intelligence.
"Indikasi that must be looked for.
If being available, no matter how small, Namru must be closed, " Effendy words, that also Chairman Fraksi Kebangkitan of the Nation (FKB), in Jakarta, on Saturday (26/4).
Therefore, he considered, the Department's intelligence of the Defence, and the Foreign Affairs Department were asked genuinely to gather the data in the field.
The I commission also planned to ask for Health Minister's information related Namru, at the same time invited Chairman Badan Intelijen Negara, the Defence Minister, and the Foreign Affairs Minister.
According to Effendy, because the field that was done by Namru was the health so as as if only became the Department of Health task to supervise, now that was other did not want knew.
"Kan was not impossible if having the foreigner, the foreign institution brought certain missions behind the program that was carried out by them.
This all must be monitored.
Would if we overseas also were supervised," he said.
According to him, the Namru problem must be clarified as clearly as possible.
The closing must be carried out if evidently the health project was used for the other mission.
"Karena this was made with the agreement, the problem must clear previously.
If having the indication for the other mission, we were closed.
If indeed we will still be needing this program, later we the repeated order.
If not, yes might not be extended again," he said.

http://www.suaramerdeka.com/beta1/index.php?fuseaction=news.detailNews&id_news=4758

[gsgs]

Re: NAMRU2 Issue

> If being available, no matter how small, Namru must be closed,


"No matter how small" doesn't make sense.
Except, they want to close it for some reason, which they don't want to
mention and are just looking for another reason which they can present
to the reporters

[Ningtyas]

Re: NAMRU2 Issue

Are we still discussing NAMRU-2 in this thread?
This is from Jakarta Post
==================================

Suspicions mount against U.S. laboratory

Abdul Khalik , The Jakarta Post , Jakarta | Sat, 04/26/2008 12:02 PM | Headlines

The U.S. Namru-2 research lab has increasingly been accused of providing little benefit to Indonesia, with officials, lawmakers and experts voicing suspicion the lab is used for intelligence activities.

The criticism mounted following the United States' demand that Indonesia grant diplomatic status to all of its 19 citizens working at the Naval Medical Research Unit No. 2 (Namru-2) in Jakarta.

University of Indonesia international law professor Hikmahanto Juwana said diplomatic immunity given to the U.S. researchers violated international law.

He cited the Vienna Convention that says only diplomats are entitled to immunity.

"We are wondering what the use of diplomatic immunity is for a researcher. Are they so in danger of being arrested or prosecuted in their work that they need protection?

"Is Indonesia so weak that they can protect foreigners working here?" he told The Jakarta Post on Friday.

All the questions, he said, led many Indonesians to suspect the American researchers were engaged in other pursuits, including intelligence activities.

Indonesia and the United States are now negotiating a new MOU to extend the operation of Namru-2 after the previous agreement expired in 2005.

Indonesia said Wednesday it decided to grant diplomatic immunity to only two American officials at Namru-2 and demanded the laboratory be more transparent in its operations.

The United States on Thursday asked Indonesia to grant diplomatic status to all its citizens at the laboratory, and denied it was not transparent.

Bantarto Bandoro of the Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) also called the U.S. medical lab secretive, pointing to complaints made by many government offices that the center is difficult to access.

Several Indonesian officials, including Health Minister Siti Fadilah Supari and Defense Minister Juwono Sudarsono, have also said the lab lacks transparency.

Juwono said Thursday the United States had rejected including Indonesian Military (TNI) scientists in the lab's operations.

Former TNI chief Gen. Wiranto and former foreign minister Ali Alatas in 1999 sent a letter asking then president BJ Habibie to stop the operations of Namru-2 because it had compromised Indonesian national security while offering little benefit to the country.

Alatas told the Post on Friday he proposed the action because the laboratory was "excessive" and gave "too many diplomatic status" allowances to the United States.

Member of the House of Representatives' Commission I on defense, security and foreign affairs Mutammimul Ula demanded the government stop Namru-2's operation and investigate allegations that it was used for intelligence activities.
===================

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2008/04/26/suspicions-mount-against-us-laboratory.html

[sharon sanders]

Re: NAMRU2 Issue

Sure we are discussing it. Thanks Ningtyas!

[Ningtyas]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

I also posted this in the thread of Namru Issue
==================================
Sunday, April 27, 2008 12:58 PM

Suspicions mount against U.S. laboratory

Abdul Khalik , The Jakarta Post , Jakarta | Sat, 04/26/2008 12:02 PM | Headlines

The U.S. Namru-2 research lab has increasingly been accused of providing little benefit to Indonesia, with officials, lawmakers and experts voicing suspicion the lab is used for intelligence activities.

The criticism mounted following the United States' demand that Indonesia grant diplomatic status to all of its 19 citizens working at the Naval Medical Research Unit No. 2 (Namru-2) in Jakarta.

University of Indonesia international law professor Hikmahanto Juwana said diplomatic immunity given to the U.S. researchers violated international law.

He cited the Vienna Convention that says only diplomats are entitled to immunity.

"We are wondering what the use of diplomatic immunity is for a researcher. Are they so in danger of being arrested or prosecuted in their work that they need protection?

"Is Indonesia so weak that they can protect foreigners working here?" he told The Jakarta Post on Friday.

All the questions, he said, led many Indonesians to suspect the American researchers were engaged in other pursuits, including intelligence activities.

Indonesia and the United States are now negotiating a new MOU to extend the operation of Namru-2 after the previous agreement expired in 2005.

Indonesia said Wednesday it decided to grant diplomatic immunity to only two American officials at Namru-2 and demanded the laboratory be more transparent in its operations.

The United States on Thursday asked Indonesia to grant diplomatic status to all its citizens at the laboratory, and denied it was not transparent.

Bantarto Bandoro of the Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) also called the U.S. medical lab secretive, pointing to complaints made by many government offices that the center is difficult to access.

Several Indonesian officials, including Health Minister Siti Fadilah Supari and Defense Minister Juwono Sudarsono, have also said the lab lacks transparency.

Juwono said Thursday the United States had rejected including Indonesian Military (TNI) scientists in the lab's operations.

Former TNI chief Gen. Wiranto and former foreign minister Ali Alatas in 1999 sent a letter asking then president BJ Habibie to stop the operations of Namru-2 because it had compromised Indonesian national security while offering little benefit to the country.

Alatas told the Post on Friday he proposed the action because the laboratory was "excessive" and gave "too many diplomatic status" allowances to the United States.

Member of the House of Representatives' Commission I on defense, security and foreign affairs Mutammimul Ula demanded the government stop Namru-2's operation and investigate allegations that it was used for intelligence activities.
================
Comments :
its only after Siti Fadilah Supari did what she did that other Indonesian politicians dare to voice their long-time concern publicly about the presence of NAMRU-2 in Indonesia.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2008/04/26/suspicions-mount-against-us-laboratory.html

[sharon sanders]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Thanks Ningtyas.

I think your analysis about a decision after the elections may be 100% correct.

I think I will close the other thread and we can discuss all of these issues on this thread now.

Do you think that the current political climate will support WHO operating that laboratory since it is a WHO approved facility?

[Ningtyas]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Thanks Ningtyas.

I think your analysis about a decision after the elections may be 100% correct.

I think I will close the other thread and we can discuss all of these issues on this thread now.

Do you think that the current political climate will support WHO operating that laboratory since it is a WHO approved facility?

Maybe yes, as long as it gives direct benefit and not compromise our homeland security.

[gsgs]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

"may be 100%" ?

may also be 90% or 80% or...

if it's 100% then "may be" can be replaced by "certainly"

[sharon sanders]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Maybe yes, as long as it gives direct benefit and not compromise our homeland security.

The 'conspirational theory' that I read is that NAMRU-2 was approved by WHO so that it could be permanent here. AFAIK, Indonesia has asked WHO to approve Indonesia's Eijkmann lab to be a WHO approved lab, but it rejected too, and some would think that the purpose of the rejection was to secure NAMRU's presence too.

I can only speak for myself. But I do not care which entity runs the laboratory. I would like to see experienced persons, from any country, operate that facility since it is already open and equipped.

I think the concern of all is the flow of information. If there is a disease threat in Southeast Asia then I would like to see several well staffed and equipped laboratories explore the problem. As a world citizen I do not care much where the laboratories are exactly located or which experienced personnel perform the work.

[Ningtyas]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

I can only speak for myself. But I do not care which entity runs the laboratory. I would like to see experienced persons, from any country, operate that facility since it is already open and equipped.

I think the concern of all is the flow of information. If there is a disease threat in Southeast Asia then I would like to see several well staffed and equipped laboratories explore the problem. As a world citizen I do not care much where the laboratories are exactly located or which experienced personnel perform the work.

Yes I understand. Its because of recognizing NAMRU's high importance, that Indonesia show willingness to negotiate a new deal. But for seven years the negotiation fails because of one stumbling block that we really do not understand why.
Well thats what Indonesian officials said in our media.

[sharon sanders]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

What do you think is the most important thing that the world can do to support Indonesia in the fight against bird flu?

[sharon sanders]

Re: NAMRU2 Issue

We are continuing on this thread that has more issues being discussed.

http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66225

Thanks everyone!

This thread is now closed for simplicity.

[X-fingers]

Re: Indonesia requests to USA, WHO and Big Pharma

Just with the food problems, we expect not in ten years from now, but in the nezt year alone a possibility of 100 000 MILLIONS of death from long suffering Starvation.



Snowy All

Snowy,

the number is way way off the mark because even if everybody died that would be about 6700 million deaths.
Maybe just a 'to' is missing and it's outer ranges for the estimate but anyway it's kind of untidy. Good numbers are also a part of clear communication.