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Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia - Malthusian Discussion

wotan

Well-known member
Hopefully this is not inappropriate to pose here and if so please do what is necessary to post.

I was surprised that I couldn't find a more appropriate forum for this, given that wars have a history of spreading epidemics.

This is disturbing enough on its own, but given that we have H1N1 already on the Korean peninsula as well as in Japan and China, it seems particularly bad that North Korea's government has anounced that they are no longer bound by the 1953 armistice.

While there are certainly other hot wars being fought in the world, I view this as a significant threat because of the large American present in the region as well as our commitmants to South Korea and Japan, both of whom would be threatened, plus the real, and scary threat, of nuclear exchange. All of that would seems to create a fertile breeding ground for any disease, and for flu in particular.

Again, if this was innaproprate please dispose of the post accordingly.
 
Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

At a time when international cooperation is needed to deal with a pandemic, political instabiity can certainly interfere with fighting this disease.

When I heard about the underground test, my first reaction was to check the jet stream maps, since much or our local weather originates in the general Korea area. There was a strong jet stream headed straight north from North Korea, over the pole, then down between Greenland and Iceland - straight into Europe. My concern was primarily about the potential for an unintentional radiation leak.

.
 
Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

We do not discuss war, violence, etc. except to mention it briefly, as appropriate, as a MAJOR complication for public health.

Thanks AlaskaDenise for that information about the jet stream.
 
Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

We do not discuss war, violence, etc. except to mention it briefly, as appropriate, as a MAJOR complication for public health.

Isn't war usually quite a major complication for public health?:confused:
 
Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

We do not discuss war, violence, etc. except to mention it briefly, as appropriate, as a MAJOR complication for public health.

And it was in that context that I wrote this post. :)
 
Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

wotan, and nomadic wench - if I can take off my 'moderator's' cap for a momenet and speak from my experience on other flu forums, and not be interpreted as speaking for 'FluTrakers', I would like to offer a couple observations.

The first observation in that while war itself is associated with many upheavals in society, and is often the cause of the upheaval, what frequenetly gets lost in the discussion are the innocent victims of war. They disappear behind arguements about who is right, or wrong, or who is committing attrocities (as if war is not one of them), and the whole discussion quickly spirals downhill and becomes a series of simultaneous monologues - rather than dialogue. I've seen it happen oh, so many times.

The second observation is that the impact of war on populations in the throws of a pandemic are, in terms of human suffering, no different than suffering caused by extremes of climate/weather contiguous with a pandemic. That suffering is aggravated, no matter what the cause. It is my impression that this particular forum is focused on ameliorating suffering, without regard to the cause. So, from that point of view, discussions about war are just irrelevant, and contribute little towards lessening illness and suffering from illness.

So, those are two reasons I don't think discussions revolving around war, or rumors of war, are productive for this forum.

Now that I've spoken out of turn...I'll climb back under my rock :oem
 
Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

World-Population-1800-2100.webp

The above is a track of past and three possible future human population curves.

Below is a quote by Sir Thomas Mathus from Malthus T.R. 1798. An essay on the principle of population. Chapter VII, p61 in Oxford World's Classics reprint.

"The power of population is so superior to the power of the earth to produce subsistence for man, that premature death must in some shape or other visit the human race. The vices of mankind are active and able ministers of depopulation. They are the precursors in the great army of destruction, and often finish the dreadful work themselves. But should they fail in this war of extermination, sickly seasons, epidemics, pestilence, and plague advance in terrific array, and sweep off their thousands and tens of thousands. Should success be still incomplete, gigantic inevitable famine stalks in the rear, and with one mighty blow levels the population with the food of the world."

So while we may not wish it to be true, the trials and tribulations humankind may confront during a catastrophic pandemic event could indeed include the outbreak of war. An event that can only worsen the pain and suffering the population has already experienced from the influenza virus itself.

GW
 
Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

View attachment 3272

The above is a track of past and three possible future human population curves.

Below is a quote by Sir Thomas Mathus from Malthus T.R. 1798. An essay on the principle of population. Chapter VII, p61 in Oxford World's Classics reprint.

"The power of population is so superior to the power of the earth to produce subsistence for man, that premature death must in some shape or other visit the human race. The vices of mankind are active and able ministers of depopulation. They are the precursors in the great army of destruction, and often finish the dreadful work themselves. But should they fail in this war of extermination, sickly seasons, epidemics, pestilence, and plague advance in terrific array, and sweep off their thousands and tens of thousands. Should success be still incomplete, gigantic inevitable famine stalks in the rear, and with one mighty blow levels the population with the food of the world."

So while we may not wish it to be true, the trials and tribulations humankind may confront during a catastrophic pandemic event could indeed include the outbreak of war. An event that can only worsen the pain and suffering the population has already experienced from the influenza virus itself.

GW





Thomas Robert Malthus.


Also from An Essay on the Principle of Population

"It does not... by any means seem impossible that by an attention to breed, a certain degree of improvement, similar to that among animals, might take place among men. Whether intellect could be communicated may be a matter of doubt; but size, strength, beauty, complexion, and perhaps longevity are in a degree transmissible... As the human race, however, could not be improved in this way without condemning all the bad specimens to celibacy, it is not probable that an attention to breed should ever become general."


Eugenics -

Eugenics is "the study of, or belief in, the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics)."<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference">[2]</sup> As a social movement eugenics reached its height of popularity in the early decades of the 20th century. By the end of World War II eugenics had been largely abandoned,<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference">[3]</sup> though current trends in genetics have raised questions amongst critical academics concerning parallels between pre-war attitudes about eugenics and current "utilitarian" and social darwinistic theories<sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference">[4]</sup>. At its pre-war zenith, the movement often pursued pseudoscientific notions of racial supremacy and purity.<sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference">[5]</sup>



Are we to fall into this trap - again?

We need only to look back a short 55 years to Hitler's policy of "life unworthy of life".

Or to the Genocide in Rwanda in 1994.

Why didn't the world react? Then, or now?

As we face a potential disease catastrophe what are we doing to be sure that as many persons on this earth as possible have a chance to survive?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQVeaIHWWck


What can we do for our fellow man? All of them.

Without regard to race, religion, economic status, disability, sex, intelligence quotient, caste........

Who are we?

......and what are we?


How can we help as many as possible?

One idea. Readily available generic drugs. May not cure. But could save lives. Why isn't this idea funded?

Written by David Fedson M.D. - via email, bolding mine:


"Research on Treating the Host Response <o:p></o:p>
That Could Help Us Manage a Global Influenza Pandemic


<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Influenza scientists are concerned about the possibility of a severe or even catastrophic influenza H5N1-like pandemic. The sudden emergence of a new influenza A (H1N1) virus with pandemic transmission characteristics adds to this concern. In the event of a global pandemic, 90% of the world's people will have no access to pandemic vaccines, and more than 95% will never obtain antiviral agents. They need a practical alternative.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Statins, fibrates and glitazones modify many of the cell signaling pathways involved in the host response to acute lung injury, sepsis and experimental influenza. These agents are produced as generics in many developing countries and are inexpensive and widely available. If they could be shown to be effective in treating severe influenza, they could be made available to people in all countries on the first pandemic day. This could save millions of lives. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Since the 1918 pandemic, influenza scientists have sought to explain why so many young adults died. Another question to ask is why most children lived. The mortality difference between the two groups probably reflects differences in their host responses to infection. Solid evidence suggests that statins, fibrates and glitazones could, in effect, "roll back" the self damaging host response of young adults to that of children. In doing so, these agents could be life saving. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The generics hypothesis is well known to influenza scientists, the World Health Organization, national health agencies such as the NIH and institutions such as the Gates Foundation. Until now, none of these individuals, agencies and organizations has been interested in pursuing research on these agents. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
A five-point research agenda for generic agents was recently proposed (Fedson DS. Emerg Infect Dis 2009; 15: 365-71; table below). This research will be essential if we are to identify generic treatments that might be effective in managing a global influenza pandemic. The studies would not be very expensive, and the important ones could probably be completed in less than six months.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
A research agenda to establish whether generic agents could be used for <o:p></o:p>
treatment and prophylaxis of pandemic influenza<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

  • Test candidate treatment regimens in mice, ferrets and non human primates to identify specific generic agents that might be effective in managing an influenza pandemic <o:p></o:p>
  • Later study promising generic treatments in cell culture and animals to define the molecular mechanisms that explain their beneficial effects, especially against H5N1 and 1918-like viruses<o:p></o:p>
  • Conduct a global analysis to identify developing countries where these generic agents are produced and determine quantities produced, surge capacities, patterns of distribution and costs to public programs<o:p></o:p>
  • Establish an international process to coordinate or manage the stockpiling of generic agents and/or their distribution once a pandemic virus has emerged<o:p></o:p>
  • Plan to conduct randomized controlled trials of promising generic treatments immediately after the emergence of a new pandemic virus"<o:p></o:p>


What will history say about this period of time?

Will we meet the challenge of a century with traditional thinking, or will we pursue all avenues to save us?

The path is not always clear but the challenge is. Compassion, understanding, and kindness can overcome man's inhumanity to man.


"A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

Einstein
 
Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

Einstein saw the world as it is but few do.

If we could all see the world and our lives in the way expressed by Einstein then the world would be a different place than it is. What we must deal with is the world as it is not as we would wish it to be.

GW
 
Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

We are the world. We can make it what we want. Individually and together as one voice.

We have this power everyday when we wake up. It is a new chance. A renewal - everyday.

Many are depending on us. We can not let them down. It is up to us to be the light in the darkness.


"You must be the change you want to see in the world".

Gandhi


We will stand by you.


:)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us-TVg40ExM&feature=related
 
Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

who is "we" ?
 
Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

Re: Pandemic and possible war mixing in East Asia

We are the world. We can make it what we want. Individually and together as one voice.

We have this power everyday when we wake up. It is a new chance. A renewal - everyday.

who is "we"?

In a perfect world, "We" would be humanity. However, in reality, all men (and women) are NOT created equally. Genetics is a fact, and is the scientific reality basis of survival of the fittest. Another aspect is the spiritual/moral difference of "Choices" made.

Some of humanity makes bad choices. Those choices often affect the whole. Hitler's choices, and those that followed him, had consequences that affected humanity. Corporate and Political leaders make choices, and those are supported by like-minded individuals who follow the path predicated by those choices. Those choices/paths have consequences.

There are certain choices/paths that go against the laws of nature. Pollution, selfish use of resources, cruel treatment of animals - these are choices made by a percentage of humanity which ultimately results in consequences.

These choices, followed blindly by humanity, lead to consequences. Because all of these consequences center on a small speck of dust in the universe we call home, the earth - WE all will share in the consequences.

A subset of WE, being those that choose wisely and with good intent, can FIGHT those choices, and seek to replace them with good choices, and a better way.

Another subset of WE, being those that choose poorly and with bad intent, will always resist good and wise choices.

And the eternal struggle of good/wisely guided vs. evil/poorly guided ensues.

WE is a relative term that simply defines which side of the line, and in which group, you are standing. It is defined by your actions.

But make no mistake...... YOU must choose which subset WE group you belong to.
 
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