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Can Vitamin D Supplements Help First Nations & Remote Communities?
- Thread starter The Mountains Voice
- Start date
The Mountains Voice
Retired
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Excerpt from one study listed.....
Obesity
Irreversible sequestration of VTD in the fat pool, especially if body mass index is >30 and person does little outdoor activity.
Could the above also be relevant to the large numbers of overweight people developing more severe symptoms? Or would it go against that argument? Not sure how they are using the term "irreversible sequestration".
Thoughts on Vitamin D & Obesity correlation?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Excerpt from one study listed.....
Obesity
Irreversible sequestration of VTD in the fat pool, especially if body mass index is >30 and person does little outdoor activity.
Could the above also be relevant to the large numbers of overweight people developing more severe symptoms? Or would it go against that argument? Not sure how they are using the term "irreversible sequestration".
Thoughts on Vitamin D & Obesity correlation?
Shannon Bennett
Well-known member
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Cartski, I don't know the answer to your last question. I could postulate it has something to do with the notoriously poor air quality in Mexico City. Perhaps, there is more chronic lung inflammation because of the smog? Inflammation after all is the key to cytokine storms. If the inflammation was already elevated then it would take less of a boost to the inflammation to get a person to the tipping point? I don't know but, it would be interesting to find out.
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Cartski, I don't know the answer to your last question. I could postulate it has something to do with the notoriously poor air quality in Mexico City. Perhaps, there is more chronic lung inflammation because of the smog? Inflammation after all is the key to cytokine storms. If the inflammation was already elevated then it would take less of a boost to the inflammation to get a person to the tipping point? I don't know but, it would be interesting to find out.
Shannon Bennett
Well-known member
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
I have a problem with the sun exposure route to filling our tanks. I, for one, am a melanoma survivor. I really am a redhead so my hobbies of gardening along with swimming were potentially deadly decisions. I also have a sister-in-law who has lupus. Sunlight destroys her kidneys. Lastly, how many of us living in Northern latitudes can even get enough winter sunlight to keep those tanks full. It would be extremely valuable to be able to include dosage amounts to ensure those of us with sun restrictions are also included. What is a safe but effective dosage for me and my red-haired offspring who live in Portland, Oregon? Or, for those who live in any Northern latitude?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
I have a problem with the sun exposure route to filling our tanks. I, for one, am a melanoma survivor. I really am a redhead so my hobbies of gardening along with swimming were potentially deadly decisions. I also have a sister-in-law who has lupus. Sunlight destroys her kidneys. Lastly, how many of us living in Northern latitudes can even get enough winter sunlight to keep those tanks full. It would be extremely valuable to be able to include dosage amounts to ensure those of us with sun restrictions are also included. What is a safe but effective dosage for me and my red-haired offspring who live in Portland, Oregon? Or, for those who live in any Northern latitude?
the doctor
Retired 2010
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Your comment on the vitamin D content of the diet of Canada's First Nations before occupation by Europeans and currently raises interesting questions. My knowledge of the culture of these people is inadequate to respond authoritatively but I will make a speculation.
Those tribes that fed themselves by eating seals, cold water fish and whales consumed considerable quantities of animal fat or blubber prior to occupation. As a result of their forced resettlement on reservations it is probable that these people's diet changed and has continued to do so even today. What is likely is the consumption by First Nations people of considerably more carbohydrates, especially refined sugars both of which contain no vitamin D. These foods have replaced their traditional food choices that may well have contained much higher levels of vitamin D stored in fat by these animals.
What's more, those aboriginal people that followed a migratory pattern governed by the seasons and the movement of game were most likely to have been outside more often during the year than today, assuming their lifestyle has become much more sedentary today. If true, this would reduce their opportunity to benefit from sun exposure.
What I don't know and is the key here is what the vitamin D content of blubber and fat from seals, cold water ocean fish and whales and how this compares with their current diet?
We need to hear from someone with a background in nutrition or anthropology or both who can speak to these issues.
GW
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Duhhh, oh. Thank you.)
So, to be facetious, a hole in the ozone may be a good thing to combat D insufficiency?
More seriously, can the prevalence of D insufficiency explain, in part, the geographical development of SOIV?
In other words, do we have reason to beleive that persons in slum neighbourhoods in Mexico are D insufficient? Similarly, with the Aboriginal people in mid-northern communities?
Perhaps there is a disease or condition, also prevalent in these peoples, that could be seen as a proxy for D insufficiency?
Could it be that the modern diet, which has replaced the traditional, cultural diets for these peoples, has created a substantial D insufficiency?
Can we assume that there was a high sun exposure in Mexico in March and a very low sun exposure in Manitoba due to the late spring?
J.
ps. As well, many, many thanks to the expert responders! This is exactly why FT was created!
Your comment on the vitamin D content of the diet of Canada's First Nations before occupation by Europeans and currently raises interesting questions. My knowledge of the culture of these people is inadequate to respond authoritatively but I will make a speculation.
Those tribes that fed themselves by eating seals, cold water fish and whales consumed considerable quantities of animal fat or blubber prior to occupation. As a result of their forced resettlement on reservations it is probable that these people's diet changed and has continued to do so even today. What is likely is the consumption by First Nations people of considerably more carbohydrates, especially refined sugars both of which contain no vitamin D. These foods have replaced their traditional food choices that may well have contained much higher levels of vitamin D stored in fat by these animals.
What's more, those aboriginal people that followed a migratory pattern governed by the seasons and the movement of game were most likely to have been outside more often during the year than today, assuming their lifestyle has become much more sedentary today. If true, this would reduce their opportunity to benefit from sun exposure.
What I don't know and is the key here is what the vitamin D content of blubber and fat from seals, cold water ocean fish and whales and how this compares with their current diet?
We need to hear from someone with a background in nutrition or anthropology or both who can speak to these issues.
GW
Shannon Bennett
Well-known member
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
I found this abstract.
http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20043133079
Title: Arctic indigenous peoples experience the nutrition transition with changing dietary patterns and obesity.
Personal Authors: Kuhnlein, H. V., Receveur, O., Soueida, R., Egeland, G. M.
Author Affiliation: Centre for Indigenous Peoples' Nutrition and Environment (CINE), McGill University, Ste. Anne de Bellevue, Canada.
Editors: No editors
Document Title: Journal of Nutrition
Abstract:
Indigenous Peoples globally are part of the nutrition transition. They may be among the most extreme for the extent of dietary change experienced in the last few decades. In this paper, we report survey data from 44 representative communities from 3 large cultural areas of the Canadian Arctic: the Yukon First Nations, Dene/M?tis, and Inuit communities. Dietary change was represented in 2 ways: (1) considering the current proportion of traditional food (TF) in contrast to the precontact period (100% TF); and (2) the amount of TF consumed by older vs. younger generations. Total diet, TF, and BMI data from adults were investigated. On days when TF was consumed, there was significantly less (P<0.01) fat, carbohydrate, and sugar in the diet, and more protein, vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin E, riboflavin, vitamin B-6, iron, zinc, copper, magnesium, manganese, phosphorus, potassium, and selenium. Vitamin C and folate, provided mainly by fortified food, and fiber were higher (P<0.01) on days without TF for Inuit. Only 10-36% of energy was derived from TF; adults >40 y old consistently consumed more (P<0.05) TF than those younger. Overall obesity (BMI≥30 kg/m<SUP>2</SUP>) of Arctic adults exceeded all-Canadian rates. Measures to improve nutrient-dense market food (MF) availability and use are called for, as are ways to maintain or increase TF use.
Publisher: American Society for Nutritional Sciences
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
I found this abstract.
http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20043133079
Title: Arctic indigenous peoples experience the nutrition transition with changing dietary patterns and obesity.
Personal Authors: Kuhnlein, H. V., Receveur, O., Soueida, R., Egeland, G. M.
Author Affiliation: Centre for Indigenous Peoples' Nutrition and Environment (CINE), McGill University, Ste. Anne de Bellevue, Canada.
Editors: No editors
Document Title: Journal of Nutrition
Abstract:
Indigenous Peoples globally are part of the nutrition transition. They may be among the most extreme for the extent of dietary change experienced in the last few decades. In this paper, we report survey data from 44 representative communities from 3 large cultural areas of the Canadian Arctic: the Yukon First Nations, Dene/M?tis, and Inuit communities. Dietary change was represented in 2 ways: (1) considering the current proportion of traditional food (TF) in contrast to the precontact period (100% TF); and (2) the amount of TF consumed by older vs. younger generations. Total diet, TF, and BMI data from adults were investigated. On days when TF was consumed, there was significantly less (P<0.01) fat, carbohydrate, and sugar in the diet, and more protein, vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin E, riboflavin, vitamin B-6, iron, zinc, copper, magnesium, manganese, phosphorus, potassium, and selenium. Vitamin C and folate, provided mainly by fortified food, and fiber were higher (P<0.01) on days without TF for Inuit. Only 10-36% of energy was derived from TF; adults >40 y old consistently consumed more (P<0.05) TF than those younger. Overall obesity (BMI≥30 kg/m<SUP>2</SUP>) of Arctic adults exceeded all-Canadian rates. Measures to improve nutrient-dense market food (MF) availability and use are called for, as are ways to maintain or increase TF use.
Publisher: American Society for Nutritional Sciences
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Does this add to the puzzle?
http://www.caphc.org/documents_annual/2007/conference_ppts/16_10_2007/a_mcdougall.pdf
School Screening for Renal Disease in the
Island Lake Area ? a model of academic and
community collaboration
Alex McDougall ? Neewin
Malcolm Ogborn ? Pediatric Nephrology,
Children?s Hospital, Winnipeg
Note slide 18 that tells the results of school screening:
"What happened
Training visits for simple
algorithmic approach to
diagnosis of renal disease for
nursing station staff in
2005.2006
With support from Neewin,
Island Lake Renal Health
Program started screening in
Garden Hill school in 2006
Initial screen examined 485
children for weight, height,
acanthosis nigricans, blood
pressure and urinalysis:
Overweight: 48.2%
Acanthosis: 13.8%
BP >90%ile 27%
Hematuria 31%
Hematuria and Proteinuria
10.7% "
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Does this add to the puzzle?
http://www.caphc.org/documents_annual/2007/conference_ppts/16_10_2007/a_mcdougall.pdf
School Screening for Renal Disease in the
Island Lake Area ? a model of academic and
community collaboration
Alex McDougall ? Neewin
Malcolm Ogborn ? Pediatric Nephrology,
Children?s Hospital, Winnipeg
Note slide 18 that tells the results of school screening:
"What happened
Training visits for simple
algorithmic approach to
diagnosis of renal disease for
nursing station staff in
2005.2006
With support from Neewin,
Island Lake Renal Health
Program started screening in
Garden Hill school in 2006
Initial screen examined 485
children for weight, height,
acanthosis nigricans, blood
pressure and urinalysis:
Overweight: 48.2%
Acanthosis: 13.8%
BP >90%ile 27%
Hematuria 31%
Hematuria and Proteinuria
10.7% "
Shannon Bennett
Well-known member
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/4/856
This is a better look at the diatary changes in First nations peoples.
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/4/856
This is a better look at the diatary changes in First nations peoples.
Shannon Bennett
Well-known member
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
I can only obtain the abstract but this apears to be what we are looking for.
http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/21/6/LB61-a
Vitamin D status among Yup?ik Eskimos of Western Alaska is influenced by traditional food intake: the CANHR Study
</NOBR><NOBR>Andrea Bersamin<SUP>1</SUP></NOBR>, <NOBR>Bret Luick<SUP>2</SUP></NOBR>, <NOBR>Kimber Stanhope<SUP>3</SUP></NOBR> and <NOBR>Judith S Stern<SUP>3</SUP><SUP>,4</SUP></NOBR>
[SIZE=-1]<SUP>1</SUP> Stanford Prevention Research Center, Stanford, Hoover Pavilion, 211 Quarry Road, N229, Stanford, CA, 94301,
<SUP>2</SUP> Institute of Arctic Biology, University of Alaska Fairbanks, 902 Koyukuk Drive, Fairbanks, AK, 99775-7000,
<SUP>3</SUP> Department of Nutrition, University of California, Davis, 3135 Meyers Hall, One Shields Avenue, Davis, CA, 95616-5270,
<SUP>4</SUP> Division of Endocrinology, University of California, Davis, Clinical Nutrition and Cardiovascular Medicine, Department of Internal Medicine, One Shields Avenue, Davis, CA, 95616 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]ABSTRACT[/SIZE] The calcium and vitamin D status of Yup?ik Eskimos living<SUP> </SUP>in remote communities is of concern because of reported low<SUP> </SUP>levels of calcium in the diet and the seasonal lack of sunlight.<SUP> </SUP>Although a number of studies have reported calcium intake few<SUP> </SUP>have reported dietary or plasma vitamin D levels. Our objective<SUP> </SUP>was to estimate the vitamin D status of 424 male and female<SUP> </SUP>Yup?ik Eskimos (age 14 to 94) and to determine the contribution<SUP> </SUP>of traditional foods to the status. Dietary data and fasting<SUP> </SUP>blood samples were collected- the latter was analyzed for vitamin<SUP> </SUP>D and PTH concentrations. Mean dietary calcium and vitamin D<SUP> </SUP>was 396 ? 285 mg/d and 14.5 ? 17.9 ug/d respectively.<SUP> </SUP>Mean total plasma vitamin D and PTH was 37.3 ? 16.2 ng/ml<SUP> </SUP>and 7.66 ? 3.92 pg/ml respectively. Traditional foods<SUP> </SUP>(primarily fish and seal oil) accounted for more than two thirds<SUP> </SUP>of dietary vitamin D. Significant inverse relationships were<SUP> </SUP>observed between PTH and traditional food intake and between<SUP> </SUP>PTH and plasma vitamin D, but not between calcium intake and<SUP> </SUP>PTH. Calcium intake was significantly inversely related to traditional<SUP> </SUP>food intake. Given the tenuous calcium status of Yup?ik<SUP> </SUP>Eskimos, traditional foods, which are a rich source of vitamin<SUP> </SUP>D, may be prove to be a critical factor in calcium balance.<SUP> </SUP>The impact of a increased dependence on Western foods may have<SUP> </SUP>a significant impact on both vitamin D and calcium status in<SUP> </SUP>this population.??<SUP> </SUP>
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
I can only obtain the abstract but this apears to be what we are looking for.
http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/21/6/LB61-a
Vitamin D status among Yup?ik Eskimos of Western Alaska is influenced by traditional food intake: the CANHR Study
</NOBR><NOBR>Andrea Bersamin<SUP>1</SUP></NOBR>, <NOBR>Bret Luick<SUP>2</SUP></NOBR>, <NOBR>Kimber Stanhope<SUP>3</SUP></NOBR> and <NOBR>Judith S Stern<SUP>3</SUP><SUP>,4</SUP></NOBR>
[SIZE=-1]<SUP>1</SUP> Stanford Prevention Research Center, Stanford, Hoover Pavilion, 211 Quarry Road, N229, Stanford, CA, 94301,
<SUP>2</SUP> Institute of Arctic Biology, University of Alaska Fairbanks, 902 Koyukuk Drive, Fairbanks, AK, 99775-7000,
<SUP>3</SUP> Department of Nutrition, University of California, Davis, 3135 Meyers Hall, One Shields Avenue, Davis, CA, 95616-5270,
<SUP>4</SUP> Division of Endocrinology, University of California, Davis, Clinical Nutrition and Cardiovascular Medicine, Department of Internal Medicine, One Shields Avenue, Davis, CA, 95616 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]ABSTRACT[/SIZE] The calcium and vitamin D status of Yup?ik Eskimos living<SUP> </SUP>in remote communities is of concern because of reported low<SUP> </SUP>levels of calcium in the diet and the seasonal lack of sunlight.<SUP> </SUP>Although a number of studies have reported calcium intake few<SUP> </SUP>have reported dietary or plasma vitamin D levels. Our objective<SUP> </SUP>was to estimate the vitamin D status of 424 male and female<SUP> </SUP>Yup?ik Eskimos (age 14 to 94) and to determine the contribution<SUP> </SUP>of traditional foods to the status. Dietary data and fasting<SUP> </SUP>blood samples were collected- the latter was analyzed for vitamin<SUP> </SUP>D and PTH concentrations. Mean dietary calcium and vitamin D<SUP> </SUP>was 396 ? 285 mg/d and 14.5 ? 17.9 ug/d respectively.<SUP> </SUP>Mean total plasma vitamin D and PTH was 37.3 ? 16.2 ng/ml<SUP> </SUP>and 7.66 ? 3.92 pg/ml respectively. Traditional foods<SUP> </SUP>(primarily fish and seal oil) accounted for more than two thirds<SUP> </SUP>of dietary vitamin D. Significant inverse relationships were<SUP> </SUP>observed between PTH and traditional food intake and between<SUP> </SUP>PTH and plasma vitamin D, but not between calcium intake and<SUP> </SUP>PTH. Calcium intake was significantly inversely related to traditional<SUP> </SUP>food intake. Given the tenuous calcium status of Yup?ik<SUP> </SUP>Eskimos, traditional foods, which are a rich source of vitamin<SUP> </SUP>D, may be prove to be a critical factor in calcium balance.<SUP> </SUP>The impact of a increased dependence on Western foods may have<SUP> </SUP>a significant impact on both vitamin D and calcium status in<SUP> </SUP>this population.??<SUP> </SUP>
the doctor
Retired 2010
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Excellent points and questions.
I share your concern about being in the sun too much. I too have fair skin with freckles to boot! Both are fun but are also markers of increased risk for skin cancer if exposed too much.
It is my thinking that it makes no difference if a healthy person obtains their vitamin D as D2 from a supplement or D3 from the sun. As long as your tank is as full as it needs to be and you take a vitamin D2 supplement adequate to keep it topped off, you should maintain healthy 25 OH vit D3 levels year round. By healthy I am referring to the 50ng to 60 or 70ng range as measured by serum 25 OH vit D3.
You can do this on your own without need of a doctor's prescription but as pointed out by Dr. Grant, there are some people with medical problems where aggressively filling their tanks with D2 and keeping it topped off could result in the side effect of a dangerously elevated blood calcium level. Dr. Grant mentioned sarcoidosis as one condition that could be a contraindication to use of high doses of supplemental vitamin D2. Another would be primary hyperparathyroidism. Both of these conditions are not very common but are seen regularly in most medical clinics the world over. Having a medical history of kidney stones is another diagnosis that would make it risky for the patient to self-administer high doses of vitamin D2 while not at the direction or control of their physician. People with cancer that has spread to their bones should not take high doses of vitamin D without medical supervision. Finally anyone who in the past had a high blood calcium level found on a routine test should avoid high doses of vitamin D until primary hyperthyroidism has been ruled out by a competent examiner. In this instance a consult with an endocrinologist would be your best bet to determine if this chronic disease if present or not since it can be a very tricky diagnosis that requires both an understanding of calcium metabolism and experience with this disorder to properly make this determination.
Enough caveats and unfortunately there are certainly others that I have failed to list.
Anyway, for the sun shy who wish to obtain healthy vitamin D stores, one way to do this is by taking 10,000iu of vitamin D2 every day by mouth.
This dose is in excess of daily need and to the extent it is, your tank will slowly fill. At some point, an equilibrium will be achieved such that the storage level of vitamin D2 and the serum level of 25 OH vit D3 will stabilize. It is probable that following this practice will lead to a year-round 25 OH vit D3 level in the 50ng to 70ng range, which is safe, will be good for your bones and might have an impact on your risk for infectious diseases like influenza and some forms of cancer (skin, breast, lung, colon, uterus, prostate and Hodgkin's Disease and Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma are the ones of most experimental interest in this regard). African Americans are at higher risk for some of these cancers than whites for unknown reasons but one reason that could explain this anomaly is the fact that at least 1 in 4 AAs are vitamin D deficient.
I still think discussing this with your doctor before taking this step is a good idea. He or she may have no clue about this and when you tell them may well think you more of a wacko than they did before but I still think you owe it to them and yourself just to make sure you don't have something that could be made worse if you did this.
I would ask the doctor to check both your serum calcium level and a 25 OH vitamin D3 level before you begin supplementing and then 3 months later. Thereafter, it would be interesting to have these tests repeated every 6 months for a while to establish that you have acheived a safe steady state level of 25 OH D3 and are not hypercalcemic. In this regard, I would not inject more than 1250mg of elemental calcium each day when following this program since overdoing calcium intake at the same time you are boosting your vitamin D stores is one way you could get into trouble.
The initial and follow-up calcium and 25 OH vit D3 level data will be informative for both of you and allows your doctor to monitor your "crazy" behavior as well as their being "in the loopp" and available to you should your "rash" act get you into medical trouble.
If the doctor refuses, you can get these tests done at the independent lab franchise AnyTest and possibly in a freestanding "doc-in-the-box" clinic as long as you are willing to pay cash for the test. The blood calcium is around $20 and the 25 hydroxyvitamin D3 level could be north of $100. No mater who you get to order the tests, make sure you get the correct one.
If you are foolish enough to try this, please be sure and share your results with the community. I would be very interested in learning what your pretreatment 25 OH vit D3 levels are and what happens to them after 3 months on 10,000iu daily.
Grattan Woodson, MD
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Excellent points and questions.
I share your concern about being in the sun too much. I too have fair skin with freckles to boot! Both are fun but are also markers of increased risk for skin cancer if exposed too much.
It is my thinking that it makes no difference if a healthy person obtains their vitamin D as D2 from a supplement or D3 from the sun. As long as your tank is as full as it needs to be and you take a vitamin D2 supplement adequate to keep it topped off, you should maintain healthy 25 OH vit D3 levels year round. By healthy I am referring to the 50ng to 60 or 70ng range as measured by serum 25 OH vit D3.
You can do this on your own without need of a doctor's prescription but as pointed out by Dr. Grant, there are some people with medical problems where aggressively filling their tanks with D2 and keeping it topped off could result in the side effect of a dangerously elevated blood calcium level. Dr. Grant mentioned sarcoidosis as one condition that could be a contraindication to use of high doses of supplemental vitamin D2. Another would be primary hyperparathyroidism. Both of these conditions are not very common but are seen regularly in most medical clinics the world over. Having a medical history of kidney stones is another diagnosis that would make it risky for the patient to self-administer high doses of vitamin D2 while not at the direction or control of their physician. People with cancer that has spread to their bones should not take high doses of vitamin D without medical supervision. Finally anyone who in the past had a high blood calcium level found on a routine test should avoid high doses of vitamin D until primary hyperthyroidism has been ruled out by a competent examiner. In this instance a consult with an endocrinologist would be your best bet to determine if this chronic disease if present or not since it can be a very tricky diagnosis that requires both an understanding of calcium metabolism and experience with this disorder to properly make this determination.
Enough caveats and unfortunately there are certainly others that I have failed to list.
Anyway, for the sun shy who wish to obtain healthy vitamin D stores, one way to do this is by taking 10,000iu of vitamin D2 every day by mouth.
This dose is in excess of daily need and to the extent it is, your tank will slowly fill. At some point, an equilibrium will be achieved such that the storage level of vitamin D2 and the serum level of 25 OH vit D3 will stabilize. It is probable that following this practice will lead to a year-round 25 OH vit D3 level in the 50ng to 70ng range, which is safe, will be good for your bones and might have an impact on your risk for infectious diseases like influenza and some forms of cancer (skin, breast, lung, colon, uterus, prostate and Hodgkin's Disease and Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma are the ones of most experimental interest in this regard). African Americans are at higher risk for some of these cancers than whites for unknown reasons but one reason that could explain this anomaly is the fact that at least 1 in 4 AAs are vitamin D deficient.
I still think discussing this with your doctor before taking this step is a good idea. He or she may have no clue about this and when you tell them may well think you more of a wacko than they did before but I still think you owe it to them and yourself just to make sure you don't have something that could be made worse if you did this.
I would ask the doctor to check both your serum calcium level and a 25 OH vitamin D3 level before you begin supplementing and then 3 months later. Thereafter, it would be interesting to have these tests repeated every 6 months for a while to establish that you have acheived a safe steady state level of 25 OH D3 and are not hypercalcemic. In this regard, I would not inject more than 1250mg of elemental calcium each day when following this program since overdoing calcium intake at the same time you are boosting your vitamin D stores is one way you could get into trouble.
The initial and follow-up calcium and 25 OH vit D3 level data will be informative for both of you and allows your doctor to monitor your "crazy" behavior as well as their being "in the loopp" and available to you should your "rash" act get you into medical trouble.
If the doctor refuses, you can get these tests done at the independent lab franchise AnyTest and possibly in a freestanding "doc-in-the-box" clinic as long as you are willing to pay cash for the test. The blood calcium is around $20 and the 25 hydroxyvitamin D3 level could be north of $100. No mater who you get to order the tests, make sure you get the correct one.
If you are foolish enough to try this, please be sure and share your results with the community. I would be very interested in learning what your pretreatment 25 OH vit D3 levels are and what happens to them after 3 months on 10,000iu daily.
Grattan Woodson, MD
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
You are correct in your personal fear of the sun. A gene mutation about 2000 years ago gave redheads a greatly increased risk for melanoma; besides, redheads can't tan.
As for the amount of vitamin D3, this study by Robert Heaney and colleagues suggests 3000-5000 IU/day for the average-sized person in the absence of UVB irradiance:
Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Jan;77(1):204-10.
Erratum in:
Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Nov;78(5):1047.
Comment in:
Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Sep;78(3):496-7.
Human serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol response to extended oral dosing with cholecalciferol.Heaney RP, Davies KM, Chen TC, Holick MF, Barger-Lux MJ.
Creighton University, Omaha, NE 68131, USA. rheaney@creighton.edu
BACKGROUND: The cholecalciferol inputs required to achieve or maintain any given serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration are not known, particularly within ranges comparable to the probable physiologic supply of the vitamin. OBJECTIVES: The objectives were to establish the quantitative relation between steady state cholecalciferol input and the resulting serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration and to estimate the proportion of the daily requirement during winter that is met by cholecalciferol reserves in body tissue stores. DESIGN: Cholecalciferol was administered daily in controlled oral doses labeled at 0, 25, 125, and 250 micro g cholecalciferol for approximately 20 wk during the winter to 67 men living in Omaha (41.2 degrees N latitude). The time course of serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration was measured at intervals over the course of treatment. RESULTS: From a mean baseline value of 70.3 nmol/L, equilibrium concentrations of serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol changed during the winter months in direct proportion to the dose, with a slope of approximately 0.70 nmol/L for each additional 1 micro g cholecalciferol input. The calculated oral input required to sustain the serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration present before the study (ie, in the autumn) was 12.5 micro g (500 IU)/d, whereas the total amount from all sources (supplement, food, tissue stores) needed to sustain the starting 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration was estimated at approximately 96 micro g (approximately 3800 IU)/d. By difference, the tissue stores provided approximately 78-82 micro g/d. CONCLUSIONS: Healthy men seem to use 3000-5000 IU cholecalciferol/d, apparently meeting > 80% of their winter cholecalciferol need with cutaneously synthesized accumulations from solar sources during the preceding summer months. Current recommended vitamin D inputs are inadequate to maintain serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration in the absence of substantial cutaneous production of vitamin D.
The paper can be freely downloaded by finding it through www.pubmed.gov.
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
You are correct in your personal fear of the sun. A gene mutation about 2000 years ago gave redheads a greatly increased risk for melanoma; besides, redheads can't tan.
As for the amount of vitamin D3, this study by Robert Heaney and colleagues suggests 3000-5000 IU/day for the average-sized person in the absence of UVB irradiance:
Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Jan;77(1):204-10.
Erratum in:
Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Nov;78(5):1047.
Comment in:
Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Sep;78(3):496-7.
Human serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol response to extended oral dosing with cholecalciferol.Heaney RP, Davies KM, Chen TC, Holick MF, Barger-Lux MJ.
Creighton University, Omaha, NE 68131, USA. rheaney@creighton.edu
BACKGROUND: The cholecalciferol inputs required to achieve or maintain any given serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration are not known, particularly within ranges comparable to the probable physiologic supply of the vitamin. OBJECTIVES: The objectives were to establish the quantitative relation between steady state cholecalciferol input and the resulting serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration and to estimate the proportion of the daily requirement during winter that is met by cholecalciferol reserves in body tissue stores. DESIGN: Cholecalciferol was administered daily in controlled oral doses labeled at 0, 25, 125, and 250 micro g cholecalciferol for approximately 20 wk during the winter to 67 men living in Omaha (41.2 degrees N latitude). The time course of serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration was measured at intervals over the course of treatment. RESULTS: From a mean baseline value of 70.3 nmol/L, equilibrium concentrations of serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol changed during the winter months in direct proportion to the dose, with a slope of approximately 0.70 nmol/L for each additional 1 micro g cholecalciferol input. The calculated oral input required to sustain the serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration present before the study (ie, in the autumn) was 12.5 micro g (500 IU)/d, whereas the total amount from all sources (supplement, food, tissue stores) needed to sustain the starting 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration was estimated at approximately 96 micro g (approximately 3800 IU)/d. By difference, the tissue stores provided approximately 78-82 micro g/d. CONCLUSIONS: Healthy men seem to use 3000-5000 IU cholecalciferol/d, apparently meeting > 80% of their winter cholecalciferol need with cutaneously synthesized accumulations from solar sources during the preceding summer months. Current recommended vitamin D inputs are inadequate to maintain serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration in the absence of substantial cutaneous production of vitamin D.
The paper can be freely downloaded by finding it through www.pubmed.gov.
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
You can get serum 25(OH)D tested for $40 by ZRT Labs through www.grassrootshealth.org
As for 10,000 IU/day, I suggest you look at the Heaney et al. paper to get an idea of the replenishment rate. It would probably take you less than 3 months to fill the tank.
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
You can get serum 25(OH)D tested for $40 by ZRT Labs through www.grassrootshealth.org
As for 10,000 IU/day, I suggest you look at the Heaney et al. paper to get an idea of the replenishment rate. It would probably take you less than 3 months to fill the tank.
Shannon Bennett
Well-known member
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Thanks to both the Doctor and wbgrant. I think a blood test is in order for me. I will be happy to post results as they come in. As I am currently helping take care of a 10-year-old family member, who had a compound fracture of his right femur, along with 60 stitches and thirty staples in his head, it will be a few weeks before I can have those tests done. Sammie, (the broken leg victim) is healing nicely, although the itching may kill us all before he heals. lol I did get him to sit outside for several minutes earlier today. While the boost to his vitamin D levels may be of help, the increased sweating inside his cast was an unfortunate side-effect. Tomorrow he goes outside before it gets hot.
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Thanks to both the Doctor and wbgrant. I think a blood test is in order for me. I will be happy to post results as they come in.
As I am currently helping take care of a 10-year-old family member, who had a compound fracture of his right femur, along with 60 stitches and thirty staples in his head, it will be a few weeks before I can have those tests done. Sammie, (the broken leg victim) is healing nicely, although the itching may kill us all before he heals. lol I did get him to sit outside for several minutes earlier today. While the boost to his vitamin D levels may be of help, the increased sweating inside his cast was an unfortunate side-effect. Tomorrow he goes outside before it gets hot.Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Ergocalciferol is converted in the body to cholecalciferol, Vitamin D3. This is transported in the blood to the liver where it is converted to 25 hydroxyvitamin D3. This is where it gets interesting because the liver also makes a bunch of other similar 25 OH D3s, like 24-25 Vitamin D3. These other compounds have no effect on bone. We in the bone community tried to figure out what they did for years but never could find any use for them.
Vitamin D3 is converted to 25(OH)D3 in the liver, and 1,25(OH)2D3 in the kidney and other organs as needed, and it is 1,25(OH)2D3 that is the hormonal metabolite that does most of the work.[/[/QUOTE]
So if there is some sort of kidney disease in the patient, the conversion of D3into 1,25(OH)2D3 will be less efficient or even completely impaired?
And would dialysis improve or impair this conversion?
If kideny function is impaired, the amount of sunlilght, nutrition, or the amount of supplementation becomes irrelevant, I assume.
J.
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Ergocalciferol is converted in the body to cholecalciferol, Vitamin D3. This is transported in the blood to the liver where it is converted to 25 hydroxyvitamin D3. This is where it gets interesting because the liver also makes a bunch of other similar 25 OH D3s, like 24-25 Vitamin D3. These other compounds have no effect on bone. We in the bone community tried to figure out what they did for years but never could find any use for them.
Vitamin D3 is converted to 25(OH)D3 in the liver, and 1,25(OH)2D3 in the kidney and other organs as needed, and it is 1,25(OH)2D3 that is the hormonal metabolite that does most of the work.[/[/QUOTE]
So if there is some sort of kidney disease in the patient, the conversion of D3into 1,25(OH)2D3 will be less efficient or even completely impaired?
And would dialysis improve or impair this conversion?
If kideny function is impaired, the amount of sunlilght, nutrition, or the amount of supplementation becomes irrelevant, I assume.
J.
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
So if there is some sort of kidney disease in the patient, the conversion of D3into 1,25(OH)2D3 will be less efficient or even completely impaired?
And would dialysis improve or impair this conversion?
If kideny function is impaired, the amount of sunlilght, nutrition, or the amount of supplementation becomes irrelevant, I assume.
J.[/QUOTE]
Please, animal bodies produce cholecaliferol, not ergocalciferol (produced by yeast and mushrooms).
Yes, conversion to 1,25(OH)2D3 will be impaired:
: J Ren Care. 2009 Mar;35 Suppl 1:39-44. Links
Vitamin D metabolism and vitamin D traditional and nontraditional, target organs: implications for kidney patients.Dusilov?-Sulkov? S.
Division Nephrology, Department Gerontology and Metabolism, Charles University in Prague, Faculty of Medicine in Hradec Kr?lov? and Faculty Hospital Hradec Kr?lov?, Czech Republic. sulkovas@gmail.com
Vitamin D plays an absolute essential role in human physiology. More than 60 types of cells possess vitamin D receptors (VDR) and more than 200 genes represent the target for VDR activation. The principle of the biological effect of vitamin D is gene control. In general, VDR activation inhibits cell differentiation and proliferation while promoting cell maturation and it also participates in the regulation of apoptosis (programmed cell death). Conventionally, vitamin D status is assessed according to the serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentration. Values between 30-60 ng/ml (70-150 nmol/l) are optimal. Low vitamin D status is associated with bone and mineral disturbances and also with many other pathological conditions. Studies have described association with susceptibility to some infections; higher risk of autoimmune diseases, association with some malignancies and many other complications. Low vitamin D status is common, but usually underestimated. The native vitamin D undergoes two-step hydroxylation to become biologically active. The second metabolic conversion is dependent on functional renal parenchyma. In advanced stages of chronic kidney disease (CKD) the renal activation of vitamin D sharply decreases regardless of the stores of native vitamin D, resulting in low concentration of active vitamin D. The parathyroid hyperactivity in advanced CKD represents the approved indication for pharmacological VDR activation. The therapeutic window of nonselective VDR activators is narrow. On the contrary, the effect of selective VDR activators (paricalcitol) in the intestine is much lower and therefore the activators are safer in terms of maintaining serum concentration of calcium and phosphate. Several recent observational studies demonstrated survival benefits of selective VDR activation in CKD patients. Theoretically, these drugs may, at least, partly cover the need for the systemic activation of VDR in kidney patients, but this assumption must be carefully examined. At present, the possible cardioprotectivity, renoprotectivity and other benefits of selective VDR activators are being intensively studied.
Not being an MD, I don't know what to suggest after this point. However, further search at www.pubmed.gov using the appropriate key words would very likely turn up the solution.
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
So if there is some sort of kidney disease in the patient, the conversion of D3into 1,25(OH)2D3 will be less efficient or even completely impaired?
And would dialysis improve or impair this conversion?
If kideny function is impaired, the amount of sunlilght, nutrition, or the amount of supplementation becomes irrelevant, I assume.
J.[/QUOTE]
Please, animal bodies produce cholecaliferol, not ergocalciferol (produced by yeast and mushrooms).
Yes, conversion to 1,25(OH)2D3 will be impaired:
: J Ren Care. 2009 Mar;35 Suppl 1:39-44. Links
Vitamin D metabolism and vitamin D traditional and nontraditional, target organs: implications for kidney patients.Dusilov?-Sulkov? S.
Division Nephrology, Department Gerontology and Metabolism, Charles University in Prague, Faculty of Medicine in Hradec Kr?lov? and Faculty Hospital Hradec Kr?lov?, Czech Republic. sulkovas@gmail.com
Vitamin D plays an absolute essential role in human physiology. More than 60 types of cells possess vitamin D receptors (VDR) and more than 200 genes represent the target for VDR activation. The principle of the biological effect of vitamin D is gene control. In general, VDR activation inhibits cell differentiation and proliferation while promoting cell maturation and it also participates in the regulation of apoptosis (programmed cell death). Conventionally, vitamin D status is assessed according to the serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentration. Values between 30-60 ng/ml (70-150 nmol/l) are optimal. Low vitamin D status is associated with bone and mineral disturbances and also with many other pathological conditions. Studies have described association with susceptibility to some infections; higher risk of autoimmune diseases, association with some malignancies and many other complications. Low vitamin D status is common, but usually underestimated. The native vitamin D undergoes two-step hydroxylation to become biologically active. The second metabolic conversion is dependent on functional renal parenchyma. In advanced stages of chronic kidney disease (CKD) the renal activation of vitamin D sharply decreases regardless of the stores of native vitamin D, resulting in low concentration of active vitamin D. The parathyroid hyperactivity in advanced CKD represents the approved indication for pharmacological VDR activation. The therapeutic window of nonselective VDR activators is narrow. On the contrary, the effect of selective VDR activators (paricalcitol) in the intestine is much lower and therefore the activators are safer in terms of maintaining serum concentration of calcium and phosphate. Several recent observational studies demonstrated survival benefits of selective VDR activation in CKD patients. Theoretically, these drugs may, at least, partly cover the need for the systemic activation of VDR in kidney patients, but this assumption must be carefully examined. At present, the possible cardioprotectivity, renoprotectivity and other benefits of selective VDR activators are being intensively studied.
Not being an MD, I don't know what to suggest after this point. However, further search at www.pubmed.gov using the appropriate key words would very likely turn up the solution.
the doctor
Retired 2010
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Shannon, this is a great article at least with regard to the question of some key differences in vitamin D levels among those who follow a traditional diet vs one that included more processed industrial foods.
In essence, it does provide us with the answer of which diet provides more vitamin D. The answer is the traditional diet, which is what one might expect.
Apparently even though calcium is lacking from this diet, those tested did not show evidence of secondary hyperparathyroidism meaning that they are either resistant to this state, as are African Americans or are absorbing enough calcium from their limited dietary intake to meet their needs.
I favor both notions, they are both resistant and have also probably evolved in a way over many thousands of years to make better use of the limited calcium available to them. This might be shown to be so if the percent of absorbed to ingested calcium was very high. It is also possible that their renal conservation of calcium is very astute meaning the hold on to this mineral once it is within the body.
Thanks for this contribution.
GW
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Shannon, this is a great article at least with regard to the question of some key differences in vitamin D levels among those who follow a traditional diet vs one that included more processed industrial foods.
In essence, it does provide us with the answer of which diet provides more vitamin D. The answer is the traditional diet, which is what one might expect.
Apparently even though calcium is lacking from this diet, those tested did not show evidence of secondary hyperparathyroidism meaning that they are either resistant to this state, as are African Americans or are absorbing enough calcium from their limited dietary intake to meet their needs.
I favor both notions, they are both resistant and have also probably evolved in a way over many thousands of years to make better use of the limited calcium available to them. This might be shown to be so if the percent of absorbed to ingested calcium was very high. It is also possible that their renal conservation of calcium is very astute meaning the hold on to this mineral once it is within the body.
Thanks for this contribution.
GW
Shannon Bennett
Well-known member
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Thank you Dr. Woodson. I seem to have a knack for finding interesting studies. Although anyone could do it, I just seem to have been gifted with the pit bull gene for finding answers to questions.
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Thank you Dr. Woodson. I seem to have a knack for finding interesting studies. Although anyone could do it, I just seem to have been gifted with the pit bull gene for finding answers to questions.
the doctor
Retired 2010
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Here is a quote from the above evidence based medicine review:
Mothers and infants among native Canadian Cree in Manitoba have been found to be severely deficient in vitamin D, even in midsummer. In Inuvik, 48% of Inuit mothers were found to be deficient in vitamin D despite supplementation.
With this contribution to our discussion by cartski we have proof that those currently living within the First Nations settlements, most particularly data from one of the hardest hit regions in Manitoba has a high prevalence of vitamin D deficiency that pre-existed the current novel H1N1 epidemic.
This is important because it is contemporaneous data and therefore can be extrapolated to what is likely present within these communities today unless of course those included in this study reverted back to a vitamin D richer traditional diet or began taking vitamin D supplements in sufficient quantities to reverse this condition.
While both possibilities might have resulted as a result of the impact of this article, my guess is that this fine example of applying evidence based medical standards to the peer reviewed data was recognized but not acted upon by TPTB. The truth is often sacrificed upon the alter of inertia.
Grattan Woodson, MD
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Here is a quote from the above evidence based medicine review:
Mothers and infants among native Canadian Cree in Manitoba have been found to be severely deficient in vitamin D, even in midsummer. In Inuvik, 48% of Inuit mothers were found to be deficient in vitamin D despite supplementation.
With this contribution to our discussion by cartski we have proof that those currently living within the First Nations settlements, most particularly data from one of the hardest hit regions in Manitoba has a high prevalence of vitamin D deficiency that pre-existed the current novel H1N1 epidemic.
This is important because it is contemporaneous data and therefore can be extrapolated to what is likely present within these communities today unless of course those included in this study reverted back to a vitamin D richer traditional diet or began taking vitamin D supplements in sufficient quantities to reverse this condition.
While both possibilities might have resulted as a result of the impact of this article, my guess is that this fine example of applying evidence based medical standards to the peer reviewed data was recognized but not acted upon by TPTB. The truth is often sacrificed upon the alter of inertia.
Grattan Woodson, MD
the doctor
Retired 2010
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
This is an interesting comment. I will need to review it carefully before commenting.
GW
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
This is an interesting comment. I will need to review it carefully before commenting.
GW
AlaskaDenise
In Memoriam
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Inuvik's location below shows the extreme low probability of sun-sourced Vitamin D availability.
During the short summer, what exposure they have may be merely attempting to fill the winter-depleted D-tank.
.
Re: Cytokine Storm & Vitamin D relationship?
Inuvik's location below shows the extreme low probability of sun-sourced Vitamin D availability.
During the short summer, what exposure they have may be merely attempting to fill the winter-depleted D-tank.
.