bertrand789
New member
Coronavirus : le pangolin retir? de la liste des ingr?dients de la m?decine traditionnelle chinoise
https://www.ladepeche.fr/2020/06/12/...se,8929269.php
https://www.ladepeche.fr/2020/06/12/...se,8929269.php
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Discussion: Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) in Wuhan has been working with bats and coronavirus for many years - DNA manipulations, cloning.... - Ja
- Thread starter tetano
- Start date
Emily
Editor, Senior Moderator
Emily
Editor, Senior Moderator
https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202006.0044/v1
One of the authors of this article is very impressive:
https://ppalm.org/page-18107
Here is the Conclusion for those that don't have a PDF reader. (We can post the whole paper under the license if needed.)
One of the authors of this article is very impressive:
https://ppalm.org/page-18107
Here is the Conclusion for those that don't have a PDF reader. (We can post the whole paper under the license if needed.)
Last edited:
Pathfinder
Editor, Senior Moderator
Fifty-four scientists have lost their jobs as a result of NIH probe into foreign ties
By Jeffrey MervisJun. 12, 2020 , 6:00 PM
Some 54 scientists have resigned or been fired as a result of an ongoing investigation by the National Institutes of Health into the failure of NIH grantees to disclose financial ties to foreign governments. In 93% of those cases, the hidden funding came from a Chinese institution.
...
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...lost-their-jobs-result-nih-probe-foreign-ties
By Jeffrey MervisJun. 12, 2020 , 6:00 PM
Some 54 scientists have resigned or been fired as a result of an ongoing investigation by the National Institutes of Health into the failure of NIH grantees to disclose financial ties to foreign governments. In 93% of those cases, the hidden funding came from a Chinese institution.
...
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...lost-their-jobs-result-nih-probe-foreign-ties
Pathfinder
Editor, Senior Moderator
PC scientists help China dodge probe of how the coronavirus got started
By Betsy McCaugheyJune 18, 2020 | 7:55pm
...
Conquering this virus and devising a vaccine will require unbiased research, no matter where it leads. And the biggest mistake is to limit scientific inquiry...
...
Findings by Cambridge University geneticist Peter Forster indicate three different strains of COVID-19 were circulating in China in the summer of 2019, each later predominating in a different part of the world.
Scientists from the University of British Columbia and the Broad Institute indicate the virus was already capable of spreading to humans when it reached Wuhan.
Harvard scientists, using aerial photographs of crammed hospital parking lots in Wuhan beginning in August 2019, speculate the virus hit that city months before China admits. The Xi Jinping regime calls that suggestion “ridiculous.”
European scientists indicate the disease invaded France, and possibly Italy, by December, though at the time, it was thought to be a regular flu.
Most controversially, a new study by three vaccine researchers published in Cambridge University’s QRB Discovery journal points to a segment in the virus’ genetic code they say may have been engineered in a lab. They argue that the addition is what makes the virus contagious to humans, besides wild animals like bats.
These leads need to be investigated, but instead they’re being denounced as conspiracy theories. Not just by the Chinese, but by scientists from prestigious American universities.
...
https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/pc-sci...virus-started/
By Betsy McCaugheyJune 18, 2020 | 7:55pm
...
Conquering this virus and devising a vaccine will require unbiased research, no matter where it leads. And the biggest mistake is to limit scientific inquiry...
...
Findings by Cambridge University geneticist Peter Forster indicate three different strains of COVID-19 were circulating in China in the summer of 2019, each later predominating in a different part of the world.
Scientists from the University of British Columbia and the Broad Institute indicate the virus was already capable of spreading to humans when it reached Wuhan.
Harvard scientists, using aerial photographs of crammed hospital parking lots in Wuhan beginning in August 2019, speculate the virus hit that city months before China admits. The Xi Jinping regime calls that suggestion “ridiculous.”
European scientists indicate the disease invaded France, and possibly Italy, by December, though at the time, it was thought to be a regular flu.
Most controversially, a new study by three vaccine researchers published in Cambridge University’s QRB Discovery journal points to a segment in the virus’ genetic code they say may have been engineered in a lab. They argue that the addition is what makes the virus contagious to humans, besides wild animals like bats.
These leads need to be investigated, but instead they’re being denounced as conspiracy theories. Not just by the Chinese, but by scientists from prestigious American universities.
...
https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/pc-sci...virus-started/
bertrand789
New member
Bottom line: We need scientists to be scientists, not political censors.
https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/pc-sci...virus-started/
The Lancet est une revue scientifique m?dicale hebdomadaire britannique,
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet
https://nypost.com/2020/06/18/pc-sci...virus-started/
The Lancet est une revue scientifique m?dicale hebdomadaire britannique,
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet
Emily
Editor, Senior Moderator
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-07-...n-of-COVID-19-Wuhan-lab-RNvYLcdA1W/index.html
But since France was pushed aside once the Wuhan lab no longer needed help, France just has an absence of evidence.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...rance-ties-wuhan-lab-coronavirus-pandemic-spt
But since France was pushed aside once the Wuhan lab no longer needed help, France just has an absence of evidence.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...rance-ties-wuhan-lab-coronavirus-pandemic-spt
Shiloh
Editor, Senior Moderator
The most logical explanation is that it comes from a laboratory
The well-known Norwegian virologist Birger S?rensen and his colleagues have examined the corona virus. They believe it has certain properties which would not evolve naturally. These conclusions are politically controversial, but in this interview he shares the findings behind the headlines.
Read more: https://www.minervanett.no/corona/t...ion-is-that-it-comes-from-a-laboratory/361860
The well-known Norwegian virologist Birger S?rensen and his colleagues have examined the corona virus. They believe it has certain properties which would not evolve naturally. These conclusions are politically controversial, but in this interview he shares the findings behind the headlines.
Read more: https://www.minervanett.no/corona/t...ion-is-that-it-comes-from-a-laboratory/361860
He says the burden of proof should be on those who say it is not lab created, why? He is the one making an accusation it is for him to make a convincing case and this article is not. I hope he does get published so I can see his evidence but this article gives next to nothing as it is all vague generalisation.
gsgs
Registered User
it will be resolved with new sequences from nature (or lack thereof ?)
I haven't yet seen evidence, that labs create so many mutations. Well, maybe with some old flu viruses from the 1920s that were
preserved by passaging. But now they freeze those. And I remember papers by Wimmer et.al. creating vaccine-strains by adding
synonymour mutations for the purpose of attenuation.
The lab-origin-people really should explain the many mutations first. I haven't seen it.
And then we can see whether these mutations happened in nature too ...
Looking for an old likely Corona-consensus/index/ancester from which SARS1,SARS2,RaTG13,ZC45 originate (in non-recombined parts).
We probably need more Coronaviruses from Europe,Africa for that.
I haven't yet seen evidence, that labs create so many mutations. Well, maybe with some old flu viruses from the 1920s that were
preserved by passaging. But now they freeze those. And I remember papers by Wimmer et.al. creating vaccine-strains by adding
synonymour mutations for the purpose of attenuation.
The lab-origin-people really should explain the many mutations first. I haven't seen it.
And then we can see whether these mutations happened in nature too ...
Looking for an old likely Corona-consensus/index/ancester from which SARS1,SARS2,RaTG13,ZC45 originate (in non-recombined parts).
We probably need more Coronaviruses from Europe,Africa for that.
What about cell and/or animal passaging coupled with drugs as remdesivir to get these mutations? Beside this, can we be sure that beside RaTG13 a more similar backbone was not isolated?
Sorenson is working on a second paper just on the origin of the virus. We just need to wait a bit for it
Revealed: Seven year coronavirus trail from mine deaths to a Wuhan lab
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-year-covid-trail-revealed-l5vxt7jqp
Sorenson is working on a second paper just on the origin of the virus. We just need to wait a bit for it
Revealed: Seven year coronavirus trail from mine deaths to a Wuhan lab
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-year-covid-trail-revealed-l5vxt7jqp
Pathfinder
Editor, Senior Moderator
Out of the bat cave: China’s deadly maze
...
By GEORGE ARBUTHNOTT, JONATHAN CALVERT, PHILIP SHERWELL
From The TimesJuly 6, 2020
12 MINUTE READ COMMENTS
In the monsoon season of August 2012 a small team of scientists travelled to southwest China to investigate a new and mysteriously lethal illness.
...
Weeks earlier, six men who had entered the mine had been struck down by an illness that caused an uncontrollable pneumonia. Three of them died.
...
The virus was a huge discovery. It was a “new strain” of a SARS-type coronavirus that, surprisingly, received only a passing mention in an academic paper. The six sick men were not referred to at all.
What happened to the virus in the years between its discovery and the eruption of COVID-19? Why was its existence tucked away in obscure records, and its link to three deaths not mentioned?
...
RaTG13 is almost certainly the coronavirus discovered in the abandoned mine in 2013, which had been named RaBtCoV/4991 in the institute’s earlier scientific paper. For some reason, Shi and her team appear to have renamed it.
...
Nikolai Petrovsky, professor of medicine at Flinders University in Adelaide, said it was “simply not credible” that the WIV would have failed to carry out any further analysis on RaBtCoV/4991, especially as it had been linked to the deaths of three miners. “If you really thought you had a novel virus that had caused an outbreak that killed humans, there is nothing you wouldn’t do — given that was their whole reason for being [there] — to get to the bottom of that, even if that meant exhausting the sample and then going back to get more,” he said.
...
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/wor...910f2cd54a2376
...
By GEORGE ARBUTHNOTT, JONATHAN CALVERT, PHILIP SHERWELL
From The TimesJuly 6, 2020
12 MINUTE READ COMMENTS
In the monsoon season of August 2012 a small team of scientists travelled to southwest China to investigate a new and mysteriously lethal illness.
...
Weeks earlier, six men who had entered the mine had been struck down by an illness that caused an uncontrollable pneumonia. Three of them died.
...
The virus was a huge discovery. It was a “new strain” of a SARS-type coronavirus that, surprisingly, received only a passing mention in an academic paper. The six sick men were not referred to at all.
What happened to the virus in the years between its discovery and the eruption of COVID-19? Why was its existence tucked away in obscure records, and its link to three deaths not mentioned?
...
RaTG13 is almost certainly the coronavirus discovered in the abandoned mine in 2013, which had been named RaBtCoV/4991 in the institute’s earlier scientific paper. For some reason, Shi and her team appear to have renamed it.
...
Nikolai Petrovsky, professor of medicine at Flinders University in Adelaide, said it was “simply not credible” that the WIV would have failed to carry out any further analysis on RaBtCoV/4991, especially as it had been linked to the deaths of three miners. “If you really thought you had a novel virus that had caused an outbreak that killed humans, there is nothing you wouldn’t do — given that was their whole reason for being [there] — to get to the bottom of that, even if that meant exhausting the sample and then going back to get more,” he said.
...
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/wor...910f2cd54a2376
This is quite wrong. Any one who is taking this seriously should listen to this explanation by Peter Daszak. In brief the estimated number of spillovers into humans of beta CoVs in S. China is over a million infections annually (based on a small serology study of rural workers). Most of the sequences are derived from bat guano and RaBtCoV/4991 was a short sequence (about a 75th of the genome, form memory, covering the RdRp protein) of no particular interest (among a thousand others) and was an outlier, genetically. It only became interesting when SARS-CoV-2 came along and it was not an outlier to this branch of the tree. RaTG13 is a consensus sequence i.e. not draw from one infection in one bat but the most common sequences from pooled samples. It does however expand the RaBtCoV/4991 to whole genome so we can see what probably was around the short 4991 partial strand. 'The whole reason for being there' was not to investigate anyone's death it was to find the origin of SARS-1 and to find out how close other SL betaCoVs were to causing a new epidemic, hence the serology tests.
https://youtu.be/Et3CHcteWNw if you are only interested in the renaming it is discussed starting at about 51:10 but I would recommend listening to the whole thing as it gives a fuller understanding of how this work is done and why.
https://youtu.be/Et3CHcteWNw if you are only interested in the renaming it is discussed starting at about 51:10 but I would recommend listening to the whole thing as it gives a fuller understanding of how this work is done and why.
JJackson: what in The Sunday Times is written is not wrong at all. Probably you do not have experience with publishing, because otherwise you would know that in science you can’t change the name of a sample to avoid losing the sampling location and possible analyses made in other articles.
BtCoV4991 was first described in this article:
"Coexistence of multiple coronaviruses in several bat colonies in an abandoned mineshaft"
Virologica Sinica volume 31, pages31–40(2016)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12250-016-3713-9
and it was renamed RaTG13 in this article:
"A pneumonia outbreak associated with a new coronavirus of probable bat origin"
Nature volume 579, pages270–273(2020)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2012-7
where they wrote: “We then found that a short region of RNA-dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp) from a bat coronavirus (BatCoV RaTG13)”. The information that the name of the RdRp sample is BtCoV4991 is missing. The interesting part is that BtCoV4991 was the only SARS-CoV isolated from that mine. A mine where three miners died from a viral pneumonia. You can find more information about it in this article:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...V-2_a_conspiracy_theory_that_must_be_censored
So, was really BtCoV4991 so uninteresting to leave it for 7 years in a freezer?
BtCoV4991 was first described in this article:
"Coexistence of multiple coronaviruses in several bat colonies in an abandoned mineshaft"
Virologica Sinica volume 31, pages31–40(2016)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12250-016-3713-9
and it was renamed RaTG13 in this article:
"A pneumonia outbreak associated with a new coronavirus of probable bat origin"
Nature volume 579, pages270–273(2020)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2012-7
where they wrote: “We then found that a short region of RNA-dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp) from a bat coronavirus (BatCoV RaTG13)”. The information that the name of the RdRp sample is BtCoV4991 is missing. The interesting part is that BtCoV4991 was the only SARS-CoV isolated from that mine. A mine where three miners died from a viral pneumonia. You can find more information about it in this article:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...V-2_a_conspiracy_theory_that_must_be_censored
So, was really BtCoV4991 so uninteresting to leave it for 7 years in a freezer?
I can see absolutely nothing new in those links. The first paper says exactly what I did that 4991 was a short section of one of the non structural proteins RdRp which we also discussed in the virology discussion. The second paper say RaTG13 is a full sequence genome and they show it as such in the graph, which I also posted in the Virology Discussion thread. Yes the sequence data came from the same mine as some people died after entering but it housed a colony of bats and we happened to get one sequence and no live virus from, that does not imply this sequence caused their illness as I pointed out the bats are estimated to cause a million infections in people near caves annually and that some may die. There are thousands of SARS like strains in these bat populations and we have sampled a fraction of one percent of them.
JJackson, do you not *need* at least a whole live virus in order to extract a *full* sequence? Even if just momentarily? I.e. take sample (with live virus), freeze sample (has intact virus), sequence sample (have full sequence). Use a sample in infection studies and tests (now have living and replicating virus)...
JJackson: RaTG13 binds to the receptor hACE2 and can potentially infect people
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2179-y
“First, we found that bat RaTG13 uses human ACE2 as its receptor suggesting that RaTG13 may infect humans.”
The WIV was called to investigate the miner’s death. See the translation of the two theses linked to this paper:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...spiracy_theory_that_must_be_censored/comments
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342424323_Li_2013_-_MSc_Dissertation_-_WIP_Englishdocx
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342424092_Huang_2016_-_PhD_Dissertation_-_WIP_Englishdocx
And you can read more about the miner's story in this paper from an Indian group:
“Understanding the Origin of ‘BatCoVRaTG13’, a Virus Closest to SARS-CoV-2”
https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202005.0322/v2
You should also give a look to this paper:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2294-9
“Rapid reconstruction of SARS-CoV-2 using a synthetic genomics platform”
You just need a sequence to create a functional virus.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2179-y
“First, we found that bat RaTG13 uses human ACE2 as its receptor suggesting that RaTG13 may infect humans.”
The WIV was called to investigate the miner’s death. See the translation of the two theses linked to this paper:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...spiracy_theory_that_must_be_censored/comments
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342424323_Li_2013_-_MSc_Dissertation_-_WIP_Englishdocx
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342424092_Huang_2016_-_PhD_Dissertation_-_WIP_Englishdocx
And you can read more about the miner's story in this paper from an Indian group:
“Understanding the Origin of ‘BatCoVRaTG13’, a Virus Closest to SARS-CoV-2”
https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202005.0322/v2
You should also give a look to this paper:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2294-9
“Rapid reconstruction of SARS-CoV-2 using a synthetic genomics platform”
You just need a sequence to create a functional virus.
Emily
Editor, Senior Moderator
5-FU seems to be researched a lot as an anti-viral. I think that could be dangerous.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.27.969006v1.full
Comparative genomic analysis revealed specific mutation pattern between human coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 and Bat-SARSr-CoV RaTG13
Longxian Lv, Gaolei Li, Jinhui Chen, Xinle Liang, Yudong Li
bioRxiv 2020.02.27.969006; doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.02.27.969006 This article is a preprint and has not been certified by peer review [what does this mean?].
Conclusions
Through comprehensive comparative analysis between SARS-CoV-2 and other coronaviruses, we found the synonymous mutations is dramatically elevated between SARS-CoV-2 and RaTG13 than that of other coronavirus strains, and the nucleotide mutations were enriched in T:C transition. The specific mutation pattern may caused by the loss function of RNA 3’-to-5’ exoribonuclease (ExoN). Moreover, as the SARS-CoV-2 was supposed to be originated from Bat-SARSr-CoV RaTG13, the increased synonymous substitution between SARS-CoV-2 and RaTG13 strain suggested the SARS-CoV-2 genome was under stronger negative (purifying) selection. We also detected some sites in spike protein was experiencing positive selection. These observations suggest that adaptive evolution might contribute to its host shifts. However, as the RNA mutagen (e.g. 5-FU) could induce the same mutation pattern, the mechanism of the mutation pattern observed between SARS-CoV-2 and RaTG13 should be further investigated in future work."
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.27.969006v1.full
Comparative genomic analysis revealed specific mutation pattern between human coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 and Bat-SARSr-CoV RaTG13
Longxian Lv, Gaolei Li, Jinhui Chen, Xinle Liang, Yudong Li
bioRxiv 2020.02.27.969006; doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.02.27.969006 This article is a preprint and has not been certified by peer review [what does this mean?].
Conclusions
Through comprehensive comparative analysis between SARS-CoV-2 and other coronaviruses, we found the synonymous mutations is dramatically elevated between SARS-CoV-2 and RaTG13 than that of other coronavirus strains, and the nucleotide mutations were enriched in T:C transition. The specific mutation pattern may caused by the loss function of RNA 3’-to-5’ exoribonuclease (ExoN). Moreover, as the SARS-CoV-2 was supposed to be originated from Bat-SARSr-CoV RaTG13, the increased synonymous substitution between SARS-CoV-2 and RaTG13 strain suggested the SARS-CoV-2 genome was under stronger negative (purifying) selection. We also detected some sites in spike protein was experiencing positive selection. These observations suggest that adaptive evolution might contribute to its host shifts. However, as the RNA mutagen (e.g. 5-FU) could induce the same mutation pattern, the mechanism of the mutation pattern observed between SARS-CoV-2 and RaTG13 should be further investigated in future work."
Emily
Editor, Senior Moderator
https://flutrackers.com/forum/forum...dna-manipulations-cloning?p=875807#post875807
JJackson, that is news to me. I think quite a few scientists are confused about that, too. In the Nature paper by Zhou and Shi they talk about RaTG13 as if it is an intact virus they found in nature. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2012-7
Is Daszak the one saying that RaTG13 is something they cobbled together from a pool of samples? Sometimes he sounds rather muddled to me.
JJackson, that is news to me. I think quite a few scientists are confused about that, too. In the Nature paper by Zhou and Shi they talk about RaTG13 as if it is an intact virus they found in nature. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2012-7
Is Daszak the one saying that RaTG13 is something they cobbled together from a pool of samples? Sometimes he sounds rather muddled to me.