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Discussion: Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) in Wuhan has been working with bats and coronavirus for many years - DNA manipulations, cloning.... - Ja

This CIDRAP post has two studies (not peer reviewed) which at first sight seem to add weight to the initial viral load hypothesis but do not seem to address the other confounding factors. In the first

"Wayne State University researchers in Detroit, involved a retrospective analysis of 708 initial nose-throat swabs from hospitalized coronavirus patients tested from Apr 4 to Jun 5 using reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR). The goal was to better describe the effects of changing viral loads—which is a measure of virus density—at a population level."

I do not see that viral load at the point of hospital admission has anything to do with' viral density at a population level' it seems to have a great deal to do with at what point in disease progression the patient was tested. It then goes on to give loads at week 5 and 6 which is problematical given the retrospective analysis was performed over a 4 week period.

The second from Italy
"Researchers analyzed data from 373 COVID-19 patients in an emergency department in the northern city of Negrar to assess a possible association between the severity of coronavirus signs and symptoms with viral load as the pandemic transitioned from high to low transmission.
As patient viral loads declined over the course of the pandemic, the percentage of patients admitted to the ICU declined substantially from March (6.7%) to April (1.1%), and May (0.0%).
"As the epidemiological context changed from high to low transmission setting, people were presumably exposed to a lower viral load, which has been previously associated to less severe clinical manifestations," the authors wrote."

Again they are assuming initial viral load relates to later high viral titers but without allowing for the facts that there was lower threshold on hospitalisation as cases fell and that clinicians had more knowledge on patient care both of which I would expect to account for the change in ICU admission along with the changed age profile. To pick one factor and point to it seems unjustified. Also I have a big problem with the section in italics as I am unaware of any data that corroborates that statement.
 
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C'est une position respectable, si cela est fait par des personnes respectables et dans des lieux ad hoc.

Vous pouvez nous donner votre avis sur ce qui a ?t? fait en Chine avec la complicit? ou pire de cette O.N.G, qui ne s'ocuppe pas de science mais de politique?

Que la recherche fondamentale et m?me la recherche militaire existent, soit, mais avec un management identifiable et pas des o.n.g , sur des sujets de ce type de mon point de vue ...

Vous imaginez que l'on aille faire cela sur les influenzas , par exemple, des dindes sauvages aux U.S.A ?
 
I agree absolute data is hard to come by for true initial viral load at the infection point. (Inoculum, I think is the term.) The researchers in the article I posted mentioned it wouldn't be ethical to do LD50 experiments on humans. They cited some work with hamsters, but I didn't read that in detail. Might not translate.
 
The problem with animal experiments is they tend to give them ridiculously high initial doses of virus, orders of magnitude more than might be encountered in a natural infection, to insure their experiment is not a wash-out due to not enough infections to generate useful data. Under these circumstance it is possible to see a dose/severity relationship but the host is being swamped by far more virus than any animal's immune system has evolved to cope with.
 
Ok. So what we have here is a disagreement among scientists. Some who actually do splicing think it is easy and possible to manipulate a virus and others say it is hard to do.

Even if you disregard Dr. Yan's assertions, there are still scientists who believe it is possible that SARS-Cov-2 is not 100% natural evolution.

Also - I really think with the predominance of China and US research dollars generating studies and supporting scientists, it is always a good idea to follow the $$$. The problem is that most researchers are always needing that next grant.

The lure of the carrot.

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15 JANUARY 2020

China is closing gap with United States on research spending

The United States is no longer the ‘uncontested leader’ in science globally, the National Science Foundation says.

Preliminary data from 2019 suggest that China has already surpassed the United States in R&D spending, said Julia Philips, chair of the National Science Board’s science and engineering policy committee, during a press briefing. The board oversees the NSF and produces the Indicators reports.

“The US–China relationship is the most important international scientific collaborative relationship we have right now,” says Kei Koizumi, a former senior adviser in science policy at the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Washington DC. It’s more appropriate, he continues, “to think of China as a collaborator than as an adversary”.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d415...0same%20period.

---------------------------------------------------

How the U.S. Surrendered to China on Scientific Research

Washington could show its seriousness about key technologies like AI, gene editing and quantum computing by making big federal investments

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-the...ch-11555666200

---------------------------------------------------

China’s Lavish Funds Lured U.S. Scientists. What Did It Get in Return?


For years, China’s Thousand Talents recruitment plan attracted U.S. scientists with its grants. Investigators now say China used the program to steal sensitive technology.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/06/u...in-return.html
 
Crispr-Cas9 gene editing is a well established microbiological technique practiced in many labs and at the core of many of the vaccines now being developed for SARS-CoV-2 and is not particularly difficult. The problem is knowing what and where to edit and what effect your changes will have on the edited genes. If you are removing, say the ACE2 receptor in a mouse and replacing it with human ACE2, this would be taking one understood gene sequence and replacing it with another. Nature has already done the hard work of working out how to make a human optimised ACE2 protein. What we do not know how to do is work out what changes we need to make to turn a bat optimised virus into a human optimised one. If we knew what edits to make it would not be a big problem to make the changes but we know so little about Corona viruses this step is exceedingly hard and currently beyond our ability. If this was your goal you would have to make your best guess make the changes and try and infect a human, see what happened, go back to the drawing board and keep trying changes infect more humans and keep repeating the process until you hit on something that worked to your satisfaction. A long and tedious process you would never get past the bio-ethics review process in the US, China or anywhere else.
 
(Disclaimer: This is not evidence of SARS2 lab origin)

Just want to make people aware that China is not fully compliant with the Declaration of Helsinki.

Deena Agamy, Off with Their Heads! How China's Controversial Human Head-Transplant Procedure Exceeds the Parameters of International Ethical Standards in Human Experimentation, 47 Ga. J. Int’l & Comp. L. 491 (2019).
Available at: https://digitalcommons.law.uga.edu/gjicl/vol47/iss2/6

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4132579/
Yu X, Li W. Informed Consent and Ethical Review in Chinese Human Experimentation: Reflections on the "Golden Rice Event". Biotechnol Law Rep. 2014;33(4):155-160. doi:10.1089/blr.2014.9979
...
The above requirements are still a bit weak; for example, they lack the obligation to disclose the “research funding source,” a provision included in the “Declaration of Helsinki.” If there is no opportunity to learn about the research's funding sources—and all the power and money entanglements behind the research institutions—subjects can neither understand who truly gains by the human experimentation nor fully evaluate any conflicts with their own interests.

And there is not a lot of transparency into what is happening in their 're-education camps.' We don't know what is going on in China, even if we think an accidental release from a legal GOF experiment is more likely than some covert bio-warfare experiment failure.

New evidence of China’s concentration camps shows its hardening resolve to wipe out the Uighurs

Xinjiang: Large numbers of new detention camps uncovered in report
 
Part 2 of the article is not posted yet.

SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus origins alternative theories – do they hold up against science? Part 1

28/09/2020
Posted by:
Dr.M.Raszek

Controversies around the SARS-CoV-2 virus continue

Earlier this month a deeply controversial and outright shocking report came out purporting to provide smoking gun evidence that SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus was laboratory engineered. Apparently Zenodo is gaining recognition as a "source" for those in the "no".
...
The authors continued with their recommendation: "In regard to this recent recombination scenario, the animal reservoir could not be bats because theACE2 proteins in bats are not homologous enough to hACE2 and therefore the adaption would not be able to yield an RBM sequence as seen in SARS-CoV-2. This animal reservoir also could not be humans as the ZC45/ZXC21-like coronavirus would not be able to infect humans. In addition, there has been no evidence of any SARS-CoV-2 or SARS-CoV-2-like virus circulating in the human population prior to late 2019. Intriguingly, [...] SARS-CoV-2 was well-adapted for humans since the start of the outbreak."

This is indeed true and still the unsolved mysteries as to what that intermediate host species allowed the evolution of the virus to become infectious to humans, plus how did SARS-CoV-2 instantly show such high adaptation for infection in humans without ever being observed before in a more intermediate form? Thus far these are still gaps in the current theory of the natural evolution of the virus that await solved solution.

...it brings us to another very unusual and completely overlooked report regarding the history of SARS-CoV-2 which proposed how this very event might have taken place: hosting two viruses at the same time to produce a new one. And not inside some intermediate host, but in humans!

https://merogenomics.ca/blog/en/116/SARS-CoV-2_coronavirus_origins_alternative_theories__do_the
 
This is indeed true and still the unsolved mysteries as to what that intermediate host species allowed the evolution of the virus to become infectious to humans, plus how did SARS-CoV-2 instantly show such high adaptation for infection in humans without ever being observed before in a more intermediate form? Thus far these are still gaps in the current theory of the natural evolution of the virus that await solved solution.
I am not sure there is a need to invoke an intermediate species, or any evidence for the existence of one. We know very little about the genome of the natural host bat species. What we do know is that the ACE2 receptors in these bats is very variable which may be an indication that it is not the only, or primary, cell entry binding site in bats allowing considerable scope for evolutionary adaption in the bats to avoid infection. In the original SARS-1 outbreak the virus was found in animals in the wet markets around the case zero. These samples were basically identical (>99% homology) to the human isolates and when the suppliers to these markets of the infected animals were investigated no virus, or antibodies, was found in the farmers or animals. A wider examination of the same species in the wild also came up blank so it is not clear if the virus jumped to people and then the animals in the wet market, or the other way around.
It is certainly true there are lots of holes in the data regarding the genetic variability in bats, and their viral pathogens, which are not going to be solved until we get back into the the bat caves and take samples.
 
China Arrests Mother of Dissident Virologist Who Blamed Beijing for Virus Coverup

BY EVA FU October 5, 2020 Updated: October 5, 2020

Chinese authorities recently arrested the mother of a Chinese virologist who has accused the regime in Beijing of a coverup of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Yan Limeng confirmed her mother’s arrest to The Epoch Times on Oct. 5, but declined to provide further details.
...
https://www.theepochtimes.com/china...blamed-beijing-for-virus-coverup_3527057.html
 
https://www.prnewswire.com/ae/news-...worldwide-coronavirus-pandemic-301158985.html
New Research Points to the People's Liberation Army Hospital in Wuhan, China as the Origin for the Worldwide Coronavirus Pandemic
News provided by
Dr. Steven Quay 28 Oct, 2020, 11:03 GMT
SEATTLE, Oct. 28, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- A paper published on Zenodo (DOI 10.5281/zenodo.4119263) by Dr. Steven Quay, M.D., PhD., head of two COVID-19 therapeutic programs at Atossa Therapeutics, Inc. (NASDAQ: ATOS), illuminates new scientific observations and conclusions documenting that the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic began at the General Hospital of Central Theater Command of People's Liberation Army (PLA Hospital) in Wuhan, China, located at 627 Wulon Road, Wuchang District, Wuhan. International biospecimen data repositories indicate as early as December 10, 2019 COVID patient records were being created by PLA personnel, weeks before the Chinese government informed the WHO of the pandemic...
 

In conclusion, Line 2 of the Wuhan Metro System services the PLA Hospital with the first genomic cluster of patients with COVID-19, the hospitals where patients first went in December 2019 and early January 2020, and is the likely conduit for human-to-human spread throughout Wuhan, China, and the world. The Hunan Seafood Market, Wuhan Institute of Virology, and the Wuhan CDC, all locations suggested to be the possible source of SARS-CoV-2 in Wuhan, are also all serviced by Line 2 of the Metro system, suggesting this public transit line should become the focus for further investigations into the origin of this pandemic.

https://zenodo.org/record/4119263

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FluTrackers pointed out the proximity of the Hankou Railway Station on January 4:



hankourailway.webp


https://flutrackers.com/forum/forum...r-30-2019-january-25-2020?p=822103#post822103
 
I once lived right by a tube station and bus stop that had direct routes to the Houses of Parliament, does that mean all the Government's decisions were my fault? This is yet another bit of groundless zenodo water muddying. These guys are going to give conspiracy theories a bad name.
 
I have no idea about zenodo. People can get anything posted somewhere.

Proximity to a major transportation hub can be a important factor in an outbreak.
 
Sharon
"Proximity to a major transportation hub can be a important factor in an outbreak." - Absolutely.
My problem is they then try and tie it in the WIV and CCDC with "all locations suggested to be the possible source of SARS-CoV-2 in Wuhan". Neither of these institutions are shown to have anything to do with the outbreak. The US Military have also been 'suggested to be the possible source of SARS-CoV-2' with exactly the same amount of evidence to support the claim, i.e. none.
 
#269.3
JJackson commented
Today, 08:28 AM
Sharon
"Proximity to a major transportation hub can be a important factor in an outbreak." - Absolutely.
My problem is they then try and tie it in the WIV and CCDC with "all locations suggested to be the possible source of SARS-CoV-2 in Wuhan". Neither of these institutions are shown to have anything to do with the outbreak. The US Military have also been 'suggested to be the possible source of SARS-CoV-2' with exactly the same amount of evidence to support the claim, i.e. none.

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We have already gone over and over this. There are absolutely ties to both the WIV and CCDC labs in Wuhan as to the emergence of SARS-CoV-2. I am not going to argue with you about this again. People can read this thread and make up their own minds.
 
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