H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

[gsgs]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

that's different. Antigenic changes are just single-nucleotide
mutations. For LP-->HP you have to include 12 new nucleotides,
that's no easy change. Requires recombination, which as we all
know rarely happens.

Also LP and HP HAs are usually also different in other characteristics,
they are not very similar.
But maybe LP and HP could reassort ? Are there examples ?

 

[gsgs]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

that "low pathogenicity" obviously doesn't refer to "LP", which
is determined by the cleavage site. It means small changes,
not necessarily in HA, which make the virus more virulant in
one species.

And Webster's argument with pandemic jackpot doesn't seem to depend
on increased poultry _density_, just increased poultry infections.
If this is achieved e.g. by spread to further continents, the effect should be
the same.

 

[Gert van der Hoek]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

that's different. Antigenic changes are just single-nucleotide
mutations. For LP-->HP you have to include 12 new nucleotides,
that's no easy change. Requires recombination, which as we all
know rarely happens.

Also LP and HP HAs are usually also different in other characteristics,
they are not very similar.
But maybe LP and HP could reassort ? Are there examples ?

Is this referring to something else too? Anthrax is not a virus.

With tens if not hundreds of thousands of susceptible hosts crammed beak-to-beak, the virus can rapidly cycle from one bird to the next, accumulating adaptive mutations. With so many teachers, the virus may learn at an accelerated rate. French scientist C.J. Davaine was one of the first to demonstrate the concept of “serial passage.” How much anthrax-infected blood, he wondered, would it take to kill a rabbit?

Davaine showed that it took ten drops of blood swarming with anthrax to infect and kill a rabbit. Fewer than ten drops and the rabbit survived. But, when he took blood from the first rabbit and infected another, the second required a smaller infectious dose.

The anthrax germ was learning. Passing from rabbit to rabbit, the anthrax adapted to its new host to become more and more deadly. By the fifth rabbit, instead of requiring ten drops to kill the rabbit, it only took 1/100th of one drop to kill. By the 15th passage the pathogen became so well adapted that it only took 1/40,000th of a single drop. After passing through 25 rabbits, just one-millionth of a drop could be fatal.

http://birdflubook.com/a.php?id=68

 

[Gert van der Hoek]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

OIE report from Germany

http://www.oie.int/wahid-prod/public.php?page=single_report&pop=1&reportid=6175

 

[HenryN]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

that's different. Antigenic changes are just single-nucleotide
mutations. For LP-->HP you have to include 12 new nucleotides,
that's no easy change. Requires recombination, which as we all
know rarely happens.

Also LP and HP HAs are usually also different in other characteristics,
they are not very similar.
But maybe LP and HP could reassort ? Are there examples ?

You are again posting nonsense. Non-homologous recombination is rare. Homologous recombination is common. Reassortment does NOT change gene sequences.

 

[HenryN]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

Being no expert, I thought LP, by continued spread among chickens could in the end mutate into HP by going through a lot of hosts?

Some snips from Dr. Gregers book:

Not only does increased poultry density enable the enhanced spread of bird flu, but Webster?s group considers it a ?big factor? in the rise of highly pathogenic viruses in the first place.

The ?more hosts in close confinements,? the more easily the virus can mutate into a form capable of infecting humans and eventually spreading throughout the human population.1711 The more animals there are to easily jump between, the more spins the virus may get at the roulette wheel gambling for the pandemic jackpot that may be hidden in the lining of the chickens? lungs.

Research on the evolution of antibiotic resistance, for example, has shown that ?intensive production? can ?vastly increase the occurrence of very rare genetic events.?1712 Influenza viruses don?t just need to proliferate; they need to evolve.

When a pathogen passes into a new environment, species, or even host, it may start out with low pathogenicity. But, when it passes from animal to animal, it can learn to become a more proficient killer. 1714 Forget 25 hosts: broiler chicken sheds offer an average of 25,000 captive hosts, and some egg-laying hen sheds 250,000. 1715

http://birdflubook.com/a.php?id=68

Although low path can acquire a polybasic cleavage site via non-homologous recombination, that process is rare It has been documented in the Americas for H5 and more widely for H7. However, the vast majority of H5N1 infections are from virus that is circulting with the polybasic cleavage site already in place. The "Asian" version was first reported in a Guangdong goose in 1996 and virtually all H5N1 infections in birds and mammals involve H5N1 related to that isolate, which had RERRRKKR instead of RETR.

 

[HenryN]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

Poultry plague in the Lkr. swan village: Observation area and control zone in rain-baptize, Bernhard forest and Altenthann after one in passed the days in a poultry existence in the district swan village the outbreak of the poultry plague determined, became around the epidemic stove different protected zones furnished. Also the district Regensburg is affected by it. There different preventive measures apply to poultry and bird owners. The district Regensburg falls with parts of the municipalities rain-baptizes, Bernhard forest and Altenthann into the range of the observation area and the control zone. The 88 localities lying in the observation area are specified on the homepage of the district under www district Regensburg. The remaining localities of the three municipalities belong to the control zone. To all poultry and bird owners in the observation area and in the control zone apply extensive prohibitions and restrictions, which are in detail described likewise on the homepage of the district. A further spread of the poultry plague virus further is to be prevented by the preventive measures into poultry existence. With the bird flu it concerns a hochpathogenen type of virus (H5N1), which particularly threatens poultry. Chickens and Puten are high sensitive, with ducks can the infection a creeping process take. The municipalities rain-baptize, Altenthann and Bernhard forest by the district administration office Regensburg by general decree about the necessary preventive measures were informed. For further information the veterinary centre stands under Tel. 09 41 /40 09 52 0 for the order. On the homepage of the district Regensburg under www.landkreis regensburg.de there are further information and additional left to this topic.
http://www.tvaktuell.com/default.aspx?ID=846&showNews=120973

 

[Gert van der Hoek]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

Although low path can acquire a polybasic cleavage site via non-homologous recombination, that process is rare It has been documented in the Americas for H5 and more widely for H7. However, the vast majority of H5N1 infections are from virus that is circulting with the polybasic cleavage site already in place. The "Asian" version was first reported in a Guangdong goose in 1996 and virtually all H5N1 infections in birds and mammals involve H5N1 related to that isolate, which had RERRRKKR instead of RETR.

Thanks! This brings us back to Germany: the authorities decided to cull a lot of ducks, with LP H5N1. Reports quote experts saying: culling is necessary because of possible mutation from LP H5N1 to HP H5N1.

If I understand something here, you say a mutation like that would be rare, the real risk factor could be a possible recombination with other circulating influenza viri?

 

[HenryN]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

Thanks! This brings us back to Germany: the authorities decided to cull a lot of ducks, with LP H5N1. Reports quote experts saying: culling is necessary because of possible mutation from LP H5N1 to HP H5N1.

If I understand something here, you say a mutation like that would be rare, the real risk factor could be a possible recombination with other circulating influenza viri?

Not quite. I was posting in response to the nonsense about reassortment and mixing up homologous and non-homolgous recombination.

The low path to high path change is VERY well defined and is quite rare. The change involves the HA cleavage site and documented changes involve non-homologous recombination, where the HA gene picks up a sequence from another gene (usually NP or MP).

Thus, for low path (in Germany or anywhere else), culling is done to prevent that change, which has only been reported for H5 and H7. This can happen more frequently on farms where poultry density is high. As a result, H5 and H7 infections are reportable, and the flocks are culled, even if only low path is discovered.

The most recent examples of the converson was in British Columbia in 2004. The initial isolates of H7N3 were low path. However, within a few weeks, high path emerged through non-homologous recombination, and the high path led to massive spread and massive culling.

Homologous recombination is between the same gene and the acqusitions cover the same region of the gene, so the new recombinant just has individual changes, which do not change a low path cleavage site to a high path cleavage site. Those changes are very different.

In Germany, there are two issues. One is low path to high, which hasn't been seen, and the other is high path (Qinghai) not killing waterfowl. Thus, live ducks can have either H5, but they are culled for different reasons (low path to high is a problems for birds, while high path in asymptomatic birds is a problem for many mammals, including humans).

All reported fatal human H5 infections involved the"Asian" H5N1 (like Qinghai), which already has the polybasic cleavage site.

 

[Gert van der Hoek]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

Thanks again!

 

[gsgs]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

> When a mild, low-pathogenic form of avian flu was found among
> a flock of turkeys in West Virginia in March, 25,000 birds were
> destroyed, according to the National Turkey Federation.


I think, it was H5N1, so they are also culling LP-H5N1 flocks in USA

 

[Gert van der Hoek]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

Snip from Reuters Germany:

The yards in Dietersburg and Simbach had been examined as a precaution, since they were located in contact to a poultry fattening enterprise in close proximity to Erlangen, where the bird flu had broken out three weeks ago.

However tests of the Friedrich Loeffler Institute would have resulted in that it acts with the found viruses around completely different strain than in Erlangen.

At a contact enterprise at Schwandorf past week had been determined however the high-dangerous variant. There 205,000 ducks were killed.


http://de.today.reuters.com/news/ne...G339499_RTRDEOC_0_DEUTSCHLAND-VOGELGRIPPE.xml

 

[HenryN]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

> When a mild, low-pathogenic form of avian flu was found among
> a flock of turkeys in West Virginia in March, 25,000 birds were
> destroyed, according to the National Turkey Federation.


I think, it was H5N1, so they are also culling LP-H5N1 flocks in USA

All countries that belong to the United Nations are supposed to report and cull H5 or H7 in domestic poultry, regardless of pathogenicity.

January 1, 2006 H7 and H5 became reportable diseases.

 

[gsgs]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

yes, they coincidentally found the LP-H5N1 while examining the contacts
of the Schwandorf farms.

That makes you wonder, how much undetected LP-H5N1 there
is in Germany... (and elsewhere)

 

[HenryN]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

yes, they coincidentally found the LP-H5N1 while examining the contacts
of the Schwandorf farms.

That makes you wonder, how much undetected LP-H5N1 there
is in Germany... (and elsewhere)

There is a lot of H5 in Germany and throughout the world. Surveillance remains abysmal.

 

[gsgs]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

the trace leads into another direction.
The Simbach farm as well as the farm in neighboring Rottal-Inn
gets ducklings from a breeding farm in Lower Saxony.
And apparantly that's how they got the virus.

http://www.idowa.de/landauer-zeitung/nachricht/nachricht/nac/2199773/red/10.html

 

[HenryN]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

the trace leads into another direction.
The Simbach farm as well as the farm in neighboring Rottal-Inn
gets ducklings from a breeding farm in Lower Saxony.
And apparantly that's how they got the virus.

http://www.idowa.de/landauer-zeitung/nachricht/nachricht/nac/2199773/red/10.html

Did they find H5 on the breeding farm?

 

[HenryN]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

the trace leads into another direction.
The Simbach farm as well as the farm in neighboring Rottal-Inn
gets ducklings from a breeding farm in Lower Saxony.
And apparantly that's how they got the virus.

http://www.idowa.de/landauer-zeitung/nachricht/nachricht/nac/2199773/red/10.html

26,000 ducks must be gekeult: "low more pathogener" Subtyp of the bird flu virus discovers - mast enterprise closed Landau/Simbach. (cis) for the duck mast enterprise concerned in Simbach is the message a vital threat: Given on Wednesday, 12 September 2007, officially admits that a Subtyp H5 of the bird flu virus was discovered there. This is not high dangerous for humans, yet the instructions of the Ministry read: 26,000 ducks must be gekeult. After two crisis meetings in the district administration office land advice Heinricht Trapp communicated the further proceeding on Wednesday afternoon. The district boss worked obviously concerned, had he nevertheless also background this measure described gotten and seen, which emotions caused the arrangements of the authorities with the concerning. The responsible office animal lady doctor Dr. Petra Brandlmeier regards the duck mast enterprise as model company, as "exemplary and cleanly." This impact from cheerful sky meets the entrepreneur. Because that the virus was brought in, but it obviously carries no responsibility. After the occurance of of the bird flu also routes of transportation and business relations were taken to other enterprises with the utmost care under the magnifying glass. The Simbacher enterprise stood for 14 days under observation. One had taken approximately 600 analysis samples. And one actually discovered "low pathogenen" exciter, which has however another trunk than in the Oberpfaelzer enterprise, with which in these days the largest Massenkeulung in the history of the Federal Republic had been accomplished. The trace leads in another direction. The Simbacher enterprise is supplied like a mast enterprise in the neighboring country circle Rottal Inn by a Brueterei of Lower Saxony. And by these the virus was obviously brought in. So it is thus no coincidence that also in Rottal Inn a case of bird flu admits yesterday became. This enterprise was likewise supplied with Kueken. 40 took part sit in the crisis staff, she met in Wednesday twice and discussed the further proceeding. Roof it not around subspecies highly dangerous for humans acts, gives it no spacious blockages. Also with the appearance of the virus with game animals this would have been necessary. Thus now only the enterprise is closed. Up to 200 aids of the ABC course of the Reisbacher fire-brigade, of BRK and THW will move forward a Dutch enterprise, which is specialized in the Keulung in the next days, in addition. On Friday, 14 September 2007, is to be begun with the action. A camp with showers and tubs for disinfection must be furnished for it. There are these tubs to buy not on the market, explained land advice Heinrich Trapp with a press conference on Wednesday. The THW must manufacture these wood tubs only and the special foils in addition orders. Also which disinfectant can be used, the experts had to only determine. The enterprise concerned by the blockage must accept now a set of restrictions. All animals remain up to the Keulung in closed stables. Feeds, strew and dung may not not by the area be removed. After the Keulung and disinfection remains closed the enterprise for at least 21 days. For consumers and citizens exist at present no danger, one stressed. Because the virus could mutate however, the strict defaults of the Ministry must be fulfilled and the toetung of the 26,000 ducks be made. 'all-clear' signal gives it at present also for the gefluegelzuechter. They can to be held their schauen as planned. Anxiously one is on the part of the district administration office however concerning the "disaster tourists." Land advice Trapp would rather be it, if these would not obstruct a large elbow around the place of work to make and the task forces in their work. More to it in the landauer newspaper from 13 September 2007!

 

[HenryN]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

Commentary at

http://www.recombinomics.com/News/09170701/H5_Asymptomatic_Germany.html

 

[HenryN]

Re: H5N1 in Domestic Ducks in Bavaria

Follow-up report No.: 2​

Report reference: AI in poultry, OIE Ref: 6175, Report Date: 12/09/2007, Country: Germany​

Report Summary​

Disease​

​

​

Highly pathogenic avian influenza Animal type Terrestrial​

Causal Agent​

​

​

Highly pathogenic avian influenza virus Serotype(s) H5N1​

Clinical Signs​

​

​

No Reason Reoccurrence of a listed disease​

Date of confirmation of Event​

​

​

06/07/2007 Date of Start of Event 06/07/2007​

Date of report​

​

​

12/09/2007 Date Submitted To OIE 12/09/2007​

Diagnosis​

​

​

Laboratory (basic), Laboratory (advanced) Date Of Last Occurrence 05/04/2006​

Number of reported outbreaks​

​

​

Submitted= 3, Draft= 0 Name of Sender of the report Mr Werner Zwingmann​

Address​

​

​

Rochusstr. 1
Bonn D-53123​

Position​

​

​

Ministerialdirigent​

Telephone​

​

​

(+49) 228 529 4176​

Fax​

​

​

(+49) 228 529 3867​

Email​

​

​

ual32@bmelv.bund.de​

Entered by​

​

​

Mme Margarita Alonso​

Outbreak (this report - submitted) ( 09376 A070002 )​

Province District Sub-district Unit Type Location Latitude Longitude Start End​

BAYERN SCHWANDORF BRUCK I.D. OPF. Farm BRUCK I.D. OPF.-HOFING (09376 A070002) 49,253461 12,248057 10/09/2007​

Species Measuring units Susceptible Cases Deaths Destroyed Slaughtered​

Birds Animals 170856 ... 0 170856 0​

Affected Population​

​

​

ducks​

Outbreak (other report - submitted) ( 09572 A070003 )​

Province District Sub-district Unit Type Location Latitude Longitude Start End​

BAYERN ERLANGEN-H?CHSTADT WACHENROTH Farm WACHENROTH-WARMERSDORF (09572 A070003) 49,724313 10,691044 25/08/2007​

Species Measuring units Susceptible Cases Deaths Destroyed Slaughtered​

Birds Animals 169857 4000 4000 165857 0​

Affected Population​

​

​

ducks​

Outbreak (other report - submitted) ( 16073A070004 )​

Province District Sub-district Unit Type Location Latitude Longitude Start End​

THURINGEN Saalfeld-Rudolstadt Saalfelder H?he Farm Saalfelder H?he 16073A070004 50,588928 11,2538 06/07/2007
Printed on: Wed Sep 12 17:51:43 Paris, Madrid (heure d'?t?) 2007 Page 1/3​

Species Measuring units Susceptible Cases Deaths Destroyed Slaughtered​

Birds Animals 10 1 1 9 0​

Affected Population​

​

​

a dead goose.
Four geese and five ducks were killed.​

Outbreak summary: Total outbreaks = 3 (Submitted)​

Species Susceptible Cases Deaths Destroyed Slaughtered​

Birds 340723 4001 4001 336722 0​

Epidemiology​

Epidemiological comments​

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Vaccination is forbidden for poultry, it is only allowed for zoo birds. Source of Infection ? Unknown or inconclusive​

Control Measures​

? Movement control inside the country​

Applied​

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? Disinfection of infected premises/establishment(s)
? Stamping out
? Control of wildlife reservoirs
? Zoning​

To be applied​

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? No Planned Control Measures​

Animals treated​

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​

No​

Vaccination Prohibited​

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​

Yes​

Country / Zone​

Country or zone​

​

​

a zone or compartment​

Diagnostic test results​

Laboratory Type Name of Laboratory Species Test Type Date Results Provided Result​

National laboratory Friedrich-Loeffler-Institut Birds polymerase chain reaction (PCR) 06/07/2007 Positive​

Future Reporting​

What further reports will be submitted in relation to this event?​

There are 3outbreaks that are still recorded as unresolved. It is not possible to declare this event resolved until these individual outbreaks are resolved.
Follow-up report No.: 2. Report reference: AI in poultry, OIE Ref: 6175, Report Date: 12/09/2007, Country: Germany​

Printed on: Wed Sep 12 17:51:44 Paris, Madrid (heure d'?t?) 2007 Page 2/3

http://www.oie.int/wahid-prod/reports/en_fup_0000006175_20070912_175142.pdf