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Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

Re: Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

The news media will publish anything now, publish any rumor without any investigation or screening. They are in a battle for survival so they'll do anything to sell newspapers or increase viewership.
 
Re: Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

so we need some evaluation process, some rating of the newspapers
how much they can be trusted.
 
Re: Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5hyqTxJlWHlv1yLyo-yETVjbOFroQ

Gavin Smith, a researcher trying to trace the origins of the new virus, criticized Gibbs for publicizing his claim before publishing his analyses in a peer-reviewed journal.
Peer review would have allowed people knowledgeable about flu virus evolution to kick the tires, so to speak, of this theory and then decide whether alarms needed to be sounded.
"I think it's irresponsible to be making those conclusions before anything has been sent for peer-review," said Smith, a virologist and evolutionary biologist at the University of Hong Kong.
"Obviously they are claims that would need to be investigated. And I just worry that it's going to divert attention away from more pressing issues."

--------------------------------------------------------------------
so Gavin Smith wants more secrecy and self-censorship.
This leads to distrust and uncertainety in the population.
In contrary I think Gibbs should publish immediately on his webpage
so anyone can check.
Even if you are in the favour of the usual delay in the scientific process with publishing
in peer reviewed journals (and not publishing elsewhere before, (so nobody
can steal your ideas ?)), then you must agree, that this is a special
situation. A pandemic is evolving expected to cause millions of deaths
and early decisions how to handle it could save thousands,millions.
In the current situation it is important to evaluate the chances of a
devastating later wave as in 1918 and Gibb's discovery could help
and the issue should be addressed immediately and openly.
 
Re: Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

Contains more comments by Gibbs

Swine Flu May Be Human Error; WHO Investigates Claim (Update1)
By Jason Gale and Simeon Bennett
May 13 (Bloomberg) -- The World Health Organization is investigating a claim by an Australian researcher that the swine flu virus circling the globe may have been created as a result of human error.
Adrian Gibbs, 75, who collaborated on research that led to the development of Roche Holding AG?s Tamiflu drug, said in an interview that he intends to publish a report suggesting the new strain may have accidentally evolved in eggs scientists use to grow viruses and drugmakers use to make vaccines. Gibbs said he came to his conclusion as part of an effort to trace the virus?s origins by analyzing its genetic blueprint.
?One of the simplest explanations is that it?s a laboratory escape,? Gibbs said in an interview with Bloomberg Television today. ?But there are lots of others.?
The World Health Organization received the study last weekend and is reviewing it, Keiji Fukuda, the agency?s assistant director-general of health security and environment, said in an interview May 11. Gibbs, who has studied germ evolution for four decades, is one of the first scientists to analyze the genetic makeup of the virus that was identified three weeks ago in Mexico and threatens to touch off the first flu pandemic since 1968.
A virus that resulted from lab experimentation or vaccine production may indicate a greater need for security, Fukuda said. By pinpointing the source of the virus, scientists also may better understand the microbe?s potential for spreading and causing illness, Gibbs said.
Possible Mistake
?The sooner we get to grips with where it?s come from, the safer things might become,? Gibbs said by phone from Canberra yesterday. ?It could be a mistake? that occurred at a vaccine production facility or the virus could have jumped from a pig to another mammal or a bird before reaching humans, he said.
Gibbs and two colleagues analyzed the publicly available sequences of hundreds of amino acids coded by each of the flu virus?s eight genes. He said he aims to submit his three-page paper today for publication in a medical journal.
?You really want a very sober assessment? of the science behind the claim, Fukuda said May 11 at the WHO?s Geneva headquarters.
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta has received the report and has decided there is no evidence to support Gibbs?s conclusion, said Nancy Cox, director of the agency?s influenza division. She said since researchers don?t have samples of swine flu viruses from South America and Africa, where the new strain may have evolved, those regions can?t be ruled out as natural sources for the new flu.
No Evidence
?We are interested in the origins of this new influenza virus,? Cox said. ?But contrary to what the author has found, when we do the comparisons that are most relevant, there is no evidence that this virus was derived by passage in eggs.?
The WHO?s collaborative influenza research centers, which includes the CDC, and sites in Memphis, Melbourne, London and Tokyo, were asked by the international health agency to review the study over the weekend, Fukuda said. The request was extended to scientists at the Food and Agriculture Organization in Rome, the World Organization for Animal Health in Paris, as well as the WHO?s influenza network, he said.
?My guess is that the picture should be a lot clearer over the next few days,? Fukuda said. ?We have asked a lot of people to look at this.?
Virus Expert
Gibbs wrote or co-authored more than 250 scientific publications on viruses during his 39-year career at the Australian National University in Canberra, according to biographical information on the university?s Web site.
Swine flu has infected 5,251 people in 30 countries so far, killing 61, according to WHO data. Scientists are trying to determine whether the virus will mutate and become more deadly if it spreads to the Southern Hemisphere and back. Flu pandemics occur when a strain of the disease to which few people have immunity evolves and spreads.
Gibbs said his analysis supports research by scientists including Richard Webby, a virologist at St. Jude Children?s Research Hospital in Memphis, who found the new strain is the product of two distinct lineages of influenza that have circulated among swine in North America and Europe for more than a decade.
In addition, Gibbs said his research found the rate of genetic mutation in the new virus was about three times faster than that of the most closely related viruses found in pigs, suggesting it evolved outside of swine.
Gene Evolution
?Whatever speeded up the evolution of these genes happened at least seven or eight years ago, so one wonders, why hasn?t it been found?? Gibbs said today.
Some scientists have speculated that the 1977 Russian flu, the most recent global outbreak, began when a virus escaped from a laboratory.
Identifying the source of new flu viruses is difficult without finding the exact strain in an animal or bird ?reservoir,? said Jennifer McKimm-Breschkin, a virologist at the Commonwealth Science and Industrial Research Organization in Melbourne.
?If you can?t find an exact match, the best you can do is compare sequences,? she said. ?Similarities may give an indication of a possible source, but this remains theoretical.?
The World Organization for Animal Health, which represents chief veterinary officers from 174 countries, received the Gibbs paper and is working with the WHO on an assessment, said Maria Zampaglione, a spokeswoman.
Genetic Patterns
The WHO wants to know whether any evidence that the virus may have been developed in a laboratory can be corroborated and whether there are other explanations for its particular genetic patterns, according to Fukuda.
?These things have to be dealt with straight on,? he said. ?If someone makes a hypothesis, then you test it and you let scientific process take its course.?
Gibbs said he has no evidence that the swine-derived virus was a deliberate, man-made product.
?I don?t think it could be a malignant thing,? he said. ?It?s much more likely that some random thing has put these two viruses together.?
Gibbs, who spent most of his academic career studying plant viruses, said his major contribution to the study of influenza occurred in 1975, while collaborating with scientists Graeme Laver and Robert Webster in research that led to the development of the anti-flu medicines Tamiflu and Relenza, made by GlaxoSmithKline Plc.
Bird Poo
?We were out on one of the Barrier Reef islands, off Australia, catching birds for the flu in them, and I happened to be the guy who caught the best,? Gibbs said. The bird he got ?yielded the poo from which was isolated the influenza isolate strain from which all the work on Tamiflu and Relenza started.?
Gibbs, who says he studies the evolution of flu viruses as a ?retirement hobby,? expects his research to be challenged by other scientists.
?This is how science progresses,? he said. ?Somebody comes up with a wild idea, and then they all pounce on it and kick you to death, and then you start off on another silly idea.?
To contact the reporters on this story: Jason Gale in Geneva at j.gale@bloomberg.net; Simeon Bennett in Singapore at sbennett9@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: May 13, 2009 01:36 EDT
http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=afrdATVXPEAk&refer=home
 
Re: Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

I think, some of the old viruses were "conserved" by multiple passages in eggs
over many years.
I vaguely remember that I once read the Brescia virus from 1902 went
through more than 100 such passages.

Now, I speculate, that Gibbs thinks they may have "conserved"
viruses this way, by multiple passaging in eggs over years
and thus accumulating mutations which finally led to the
novel virus

?
 
Re: Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

... and that Gibbs claims that he can somehow distinguish
these egg-mutations from mutations naturally acquired in pigs ?

one method that comes to mind is the counting of A+T nucleotides,
this should be higher in mammals than in birds (eggs)

[if it was this, then why did Jason Gale,Fukuda,Cox not mention it ?]

let me see...
 
Re: Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

so, here the AT-scores of some selected genomes:

Code:
5400      1:>A/duck/Memphis/546/1974(H11N9)                                                                 
5414      2:>A/turkey/Ontario/6118/1968(H8N4)                                                               
5459      3:>A/turkey/Wisconsin/1/1966(H9N2)                                                                
5417      4:>A/Turkey/California/189/66(H9N2)                                                               
5464      5:>A/turkey/Oregon/1971(H7N3)                                                                     
5612      6:>A/swine/Minnesota/SG-00241/2007(H1N1)                                                           
5548      7:>A/New York/18/2009                                                                             
5546      8:>A/Canada-ON/RV1527/2009                                                                        
5539      9:>A/Mexico/InDRE4487/2009                                                                        
5539     10:>A/swine-flu/index/2009-02-01(H1N1)                                                             
5539     11:>A/Texas/04/2009                                                                                
5601     16:>A/swine/Minnesota/SG-00240/2007(H1N1)                                                           
5591     17:>A/swine/Minnesota/SG-00238/2006(H1N1)                                                           
5502     18:>A/Turkey/MO/24093/99(H1N2)                                                                     
5591     19:>A/mallard duck/South Dakota/Sg-00125/2007(H3N2)                                                 
5544     20:>A/swine/Korea/CY04/2007(H3N2)                                                                  
5492     21:>A/Swine/Texas/4199-2/98(H3N2)                                                                  
5597     22:>A/swine/Illinois/SG-00244/2007(H1N1)                                                            
5557     23:>A/swine/OH/511445/2007(H1N1)                                                                   
5555     24:>A/swine/Ohio/24366/07(H1N1)                                                                    
5573     25:>A/swine/Ohio/C62006/06(H1N1)                                                                   
5537     26:>A/Wisconsin/10/98(H1N1)                                                                        
5544     27:>A/Iowa/CEID23/2005(H1N1)                                                                       
5638     28:>A/swine/Ontario/53518/03(H1N1)                                                                 
5688     29:>A/swine/Ontario/23866/04(H1N1)                                                                 
5684     30:>A/swine/Ontario/57561/03(H1N1)                                                                 
5643     31:>A/swine/Alberta/56626/03(H1N1)                                                                 
5656     32:>A/swine/Tennessee/25/1977(H1N1)                                                                
5625     33:>A/swine/Wisconsin/2/1966(H1N1)                                                                 
5659     34:>A/swine/Wisconsin/1/1967(H1N1)                                                                 
5601     35:>A/swine/Wisconsin/1/1961(H1N1)                                                                 
5608     36:>A/swine/Wisconsin/1/1957(H1N1)                                                                 
5571     37:>A/swine/Ohio/23/1935(H1N1)                                                                     
5536     38:>A/swine/1931(H1N1)                                                                             
5516     39:>A/swine/Jamesburg/1942(H1N1)                                                                   
5497     40:>A/Brevig Mission/1/1918(H1N1)                                                                  
5592     41:>A/Alaska/1935(H1N1)                                                                            
5599     42:>A/Hickox/1940(H1N1)                                                                            
5625     43:>A/swine/Henan/01/06(H1N1)                                                                      
5620     44:>A/swine/Tianjin/01/04(H1N1)                                                                    
5709     45:>A/swine/Ohio/K1207/06(H1N1)                                                                    
5731     46:>A/swine/Ohio/K1130/06(H1N1)                                                                    
5696     47:>A/Kansas/UR06-0068/2007(H1N1)                                                                  
5564     48:>A/Japan/305/57(H2N2)                                                                           
5635     49:>A/Texas/UR06-0356/2007(H3N2)                                                                   
5593     50:>A/Russia/WO0200884/72(H3N2)                                                                    
5530     51:>A/swine/Hong Kong/5190/99(H3N2)                                                                
5580     52:>A/Swine/Spain/50047/2003(H1N1)                                                                 
5627     53:>A/swine/Spain/51915/2003(H1N1)                                                                 
5624     54:>A/swine/Spain/53207/2004(H1N1)                                                                 
5526     55:>A/swine/Italy/670/1987(H1N1)                                                                   
5528     56:>A/swine/Italy/671/1987(H1N1)                                                                   
5490     57:>A/swine/Germany/2/1981(H1N1)=1578                                                              
5477     58:>A/Bar-h Gs/Qinghai/62/05(H5N1)                                                                 
5449     59:>A/Ck/Scotland/1959(H5N1)                                                                       
5404     60:>A/tern/South Africa/1961(H5N3)                                                                 
5452     61:>A/duck/Germany/1215/1973(H2N3)                                                                 
5466     62:>A/turkey/England/1963(H7N3)                                                                    
5425     63:>A/fowl/Rostock/45/1934(H7N1)                                                                   
5458     64:>A/fowl/Dobson/1927(H7N7)                                                                       
5458     65:>A/Ck/Germany/n/1949(H10N7)                                                                     
5455     66:>A/quail/Italy/1117/1965(H10N8)                                                                 
5430     67:>A/Dk/UKR/1/1963(H3N8)                                                                          
5381     68:>A/duck/Chabarovsk/1610/1972(H3N8)                                                              
5463     69:>A/pintail/Alaska/779/2005(H3N8)                                                                
5468     70:>A/turkey/MO/21939/1987(H1N1)                                                                   
5444     71:>A/swine/Saskatchewan/18789/02(H1N1)                                                            
5428     72:>A/chicken/Taiwan/G2/87(H6N1)                                                                   
5403     73:>A/duck/Taiwan/0526/72(H6N1)                                                                    
5428     74:>A/shearwater/Australia/1/1973(H6N5)                                                            
5409     75:>A/duck/England/1956(H11N6)                                                                     
5448     76:>A/duck/Czechoslovakia/1956(H4N6)
here without the segments 6,7 which came froma Eurasia




Code:
ratio of {A,T}-nucleotides *10000
       number of available nucleotides 
             virus name

----------------------------------------------
 5645  10766 >A/swine-flu/index/2009-02-01(H1N1)

 5631   8901 >A/Wisconsin/10/98(H1N1)

 5614   6669 >A/swine/Minnesota/SG-00241/2007(H1N1)
 5604   6686 >A/swine/Minnesota/SG-00240/2007(H1N1)
 5595   6670 >A/swine/Minnesota/SG-00238/2006(H1N1)
 5649   5749 >A/Turkey/MO/24093/99(H1N2)
 5597   6649 >A/mallard duck/South Dakota/Sg-00125/2007(H3N2)
 5626  10759 >A/swine/Korea/CY04/2007(H3N2)
 5575   6455 >A/Swine/Texas/4199-2/98(H3N2)
 5599   6663 >A/swine/Illinois/SG-00244/2007(H1N1)
 5648  10982 >A/swine/OH/511445/2007(H1N1)
 5639  10565 >A/swine/Ohio/24366/07(H1N1)
 5698   6210 >A/swine/Ohio/C62006/06(H1N1)
 5653  10741 >A/Iowa/CEID23/2005(H1N1)

 5596   9390 >A/duck/Memphis/546/1974(H11N9)
 5561  11113 >A/turkey/Ontario/6118/1968(H8N4)
 5592  11112 >A/turkey/Wisconsin/1/1966(H9N2)
 5538  10641 >A/Turkey/California/189/66(H9N2)
 5591  10797 >A/turkey/Oregon/1971(H7N3)
 5749  10790 >A/swine/Ontario/53518/03(H1N1)
 5804  10828 >A/swine/Ontario/23866/04(H1N1)
 5796  10741 >A/swine/Ontario/57561/03(H1N1)
 5782  10869 >A/swine/Alberta/56626/03(H1N1)
 5764  11022 >A/swine/Tennessee/25/1977(H1N1)
 5735  10891 >A/swine/Wisconsin/2/1966(H1N1)
 5757  10882 >A/swine/Wisconsin/1/1967(H1N1)
 5720  10870 >A/swine/Wisconsin/1/1961(H1N1)
 5714  10888 >A/swine/Wisconsin/1/1957(H1N1)
 5649  10930 >A/swine/Ohio/23/1935(H1N1)
 5641  10960 >A/swine/1931(H1N1)
 5610  10885 >A/swine/Jamesburg/1942(H1N1)
 5589  10741 >A/Brevig Mission/1/1918(H1N1)
 5681  10858 >A/Alaska/1935(H1N1)
 5703  10875 >A/Hickox/1940(H1N1)
 5733  11148 >A/swine/Henan/01/06(H1N1)
 5731  11148 >A/swine/Tianjin/01/04(H1N1)
 5821   3906 >A/swine/Ohio/K1207/06(H1N1)
 5839   3949 >A/swine/Ohio/K1130/06(H1N1)
 5773  10879 >A/Kansas/UR06-0068/2007(H1N1)
 5660  10735 >A/Japan/305/57(H2N2)
 5726  10857 >A/Texas/UR06-0356/2007(H3N2)
 5673  11135 >A/Russia/WO0200884/72(H3N2)
 5635   8004 >A/swine/Hong Kong/5190/99(H3N2)
 5691  10940 >A/Swine/Spain/50047/2003(H1N1)
 5740  10945 >A/swine/Spain/51915/2003(H1N1)
 5736  10943 >A/swine/Spain/53207/2004(H1N1)
 5642  10927 >A/swine/Italy/670/1987(H1N1)
 5641  10939 >A/swine/Italy/671/1987(H1N1)
 5622  11067 >A/swine/Germany/2/1981(H1N1)=1578 
 5610  10792 >A/Bar-h Gs/Qinghai/62/05(H5N1)
 5582  11137 >A/Ck/Scotland/1959(H5N1)
 5566  11149 >A/tern/South Africa/1961(H5N3)
 5612  11143 >A/duck/Germany/1215/1973(H2N3)
 5582  11107 >A/turkey/England/1963(H7N3)
 5559  11111 >A/fowl/Rostock/45/1934(H7N1)
 5580  11111 >A/fowl/Dobson/1927(H7N7)
 5581  11100 >A/Ck/Germany/n/1949(H10N7)
 5580  11098 >A/quail/Italy/1117/1965(H10N8)
 5544  11133 >A/Dk/UKR/1/1963(H3N8)
 5520  11135 >A/duck/Chabarovsk/1610/1972(H3N8)
 5571  10914 >A/pintail/Alaska/779/2005(H3N8)
 5577  10927 >A/turkey/MO/21939/1987(H1N1)
 5537  10741 >A/swine/Saskatchewan/18789/02(H1N1)
 5589  11113 >A/chicken/Taiwan/G2/87(H6N1)
 5565  11111 >A/duck/Taiwan/0526/72(H6N1)
 5577  11113 >A/shearwater/Australia/1/1973(H6N5)
 5592  11130 >A/duck/England/1956(H11N6)
 5570  11108 >A/duck/Czechoslovakia/1956(H4N6)

that doesn't so well support Gibb's claim. novel flu has a similar score
as other recent North American swine viruses
But it's hard to say, there was not so much change in AT-score
in swine viruses in the last decades



and in segments 6,7 alone:

Code:
 5585  2392 >A/swine-flu/index/2009-02-01(H1N1)

 5554  2344 >A/swine/Hong Kong/5190/99(H3N2)
 5568  2419 >A/Swine/Spain/50047/2003(H1N1)
 5510  2439 >A/swine/Spain/51915/2003(H1N1)
 5597  2419 >A/swine/Spain/53207/2004(H1N1)
 5541  2420 >A/swine/Italy/670/1987(H1N1)
 5545  2420 >A/swine/Italy/671/1987(H1N1)
 5472  2414 >A/swine/Germany/2/1981(H1N1)=1578 

 5501  2381 >A/swine/Korea/CY04/2007(H3N2)
 5645  2485 >A/Wisconsin/10/98(H1N1)
 5635  2392 >A/Iowa/CEID23/2005(H1N1)
 5616  2432 >A/swine/1931(H1N1)
 5505  2392 >A/Brevig Mission/1/1918(H1N1)
 5570  2411 >A/swine/Henan/01/06(H1N1)
 5620  2489 >A/swine/Tianjin/01/04(H1N1)
 5667  2405 >A/Kansas/UR06-0068/2007(H1N1)
 5495  2404 >A/Japan/305/57(H2N2)
 5529  2416 >A/Texas/UR06-0356/2007(H3N2)
 5519  2493 >A/Russia/WO0200884/72(H3N2)
 5446  2343 >A/Bar-h Gs/Qinghai/62/05(H5N1)
so apparantly that wasn't Gibb's idea
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

they must have lots of sequences in secret databases,
sequences which probably would reveal the origine of novelflu.

So, assume that they already know it...

Of course that in the various worldwide labs exists plenty of whatsoever experimental microbes, vaccines, and so on.

Who can exibit detailed proves that all the existing world (business and non) freezers interiors are compiled and wroted to an international independent screening body?
Nobody can.
 
Re: Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

not just any lab.

special labs testing swines for flu, run by swine producers.

They can't produce vaccine without sequences, without testing.

These sequences should close the gap between 1998 and 2009


Shouldn't they be urged to release them now, so to prevent this
from happening again, so to better evaluate and manage the current
situation ?

They will be accused of "producing" pandemics, killing millions
of people worldwide, causing nasty diseases in billions.
(And claiming for some sort of copyright on the virus that did this)
 
Re: Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

one method that comes to mind is the counting of A+T nucleotides, this should be higher in mammals than in birds (eggs)

Why should passage in a mammalian or bird host affect viral A/T content?
 
Swine Flu May Have Been Released From Lab

Swine Flu May Have Been Released From Lab

May 13 (Bloomberg) -- The World Health Organization is investigating a claim by an Australian researcher that the swine flu virus circling the globe may have been created as a result of human error.

Adrian Gibbs, 75, who collaborated on research that led to the development of Roche Holding AG’s Tamiflu drug, said in an interview that he intends to publish a report suggesting the new strain may have accidentally evolved in eggs scientists use to grow viruses and drugmakers use to make vaccines. Gibbs said he came to his conclusion as part of an effort to trace the virus’s origins by analyzing its genetic blueprint.

“One of the simplest explanations is that it’s a laboratory escape,” Gibbs said.

In addition, Gibbs said his research found the rate of genetic mutation in the new virus was about three times faster than that of the most closely related viruses found in pigs, suggesting it evolved outside of swine.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=afrdATVXPEAk&refer=worldwide#
 
Re: Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

Welcome Pije2!


Everyone please try to post to existing threads. Thanks!
 
Re: Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

Incidently, my own calculations back what Gibbs' claims -- that is, a much higher rate of mutation (2-3x higher) than what is found in natural human or swine influenza strains.
 
Re: Swine Flu May Be Human Error, Scientist Says; WHO Probes Claim

Incidently, my own calculations back what Gibbs' claims -- that is, a much higher rate of mutation (2-3x higher) than what is found in natural human or swine influenza strains.
You don't have parental sequences and neither does Gibbs. This is just hand waving.
 
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